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'SILLY BELIEFS'
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Good Site.
Have a look at this: www.prophet.co.nz in particular the avatar course.
these guys are out there!
this kind of bullshit is unfortunately spreading like a cancer in this country, lets not make it too easy for them.
keep up the good work
Sorry didnt really enjoy your site!
You need to update your website, or wait maybe you don't because you can't find new things to cittersize!
Thanks for the suggestion Sam, but we don't need to update "facts". The beliefs we denounce on our website are still false and still silly as far as we can determine. You certainly don't give us any information to make us question our stance, you don't even mention what silly belief you have attached yourself to.
Watever!
n dnt b so bloody picky!
Hi John, just come across your website. Brilliant, all power to you. I endorse your comments 100%. My area of expertise is Astronomy and I have spent much of my time educating people about the science of Astronomy or more particularly Cosmology. Religion is a social disease born of ignorance, fear and superstition. I am currently developing a series of presentations to educate people about Cosmology in order to counter much of the ignorance and mis-information out there.
Hi John, I should have my own web page where I can post my ideas. Unfortunately I don't know how to go about it and don't want to pay someone to do it. In the meantime I have to be content with posting to other people's blogs.
A few days ago there was an article in the media on spare fertilised human eggs left over from fertility treatments. The eggs belong to the donors so they have the right to decide on their disposal. The problem is some have been frozen for several years and the owners have gone. The laboratories where they are stored have three choices, destroy them, use them for egg donations or use them for experiments. The Catholic Church has jumped in and demanded they be destroyed. It regards life as starting at conception. God inserts souls into fertilised eggs and they have the status of fully formed humans. In fact the Catholic Church regards all life as belonging to God so no interference can be allowed in the natural process of conception and birth at all. In fact if childless couples can't conceive then they must go childless. Artificial insemination or removal of eggs for in vitro fertilisation is out. Medical experiments on fertilised eggs are totally out of the question.
A few weeks ago I read a very interesting book called The Story of God, written by Robert Winston a doctor scientist, author and television presenter who has specialised in human fertility. He hosted a series recently on the development of children from birth shown here on local TV. The Story of God was in fact a BBC television series on the history of religion. Winston asked for and got permission to turn the series into a book. If you see it in your local library I can recommend reading it. One chapter is on his experience with attempts to carry out studies of early embryos.
The earlier work on in vitro fertilisation did not cause too much controversy until Dolly the sheep was born. That combined with genetic modification and suggestions for experiments on embryos really set the cat among the pigeons. These scientists were acting as God! Laws were set in place particularly by the fundamentalist Bush administration defining the limits of research. The Winston laboratory wanted to experiment on early embryos where the fertilised eggs were allowed to split 8 times. This was still a tiny speck visible only under a fairly strong microscope. The trouble was the law didn't allow them to do it. Members of the British parliament either religious themselves or mindful of upsetting the religious establishment had to be pushed hard to enact laws to allow the experiments. Winston pointed out eggs often split several times before they even implant on the uterus. The embryo at this stage has no recognisable human cells, no brain or nerve cells. That didn't deter the opponents. Groups like the Right to Life printed out pictures of fully formed fetuses in their leaflets opposing the experiments. The Catholic Church placed petitions of opposition at the doors of their churches asking members to sign them on their way out. Yet Winston says little effort was made to explain the issues to them. He had Catholic couples come to him for help with their infertility and were puzzled to find they were doing something wrong. It wasn't only Catholics opposing. He had Rabbis and Protestant ministers. He invited them to come to the laboratory to see for themselves. Few would. A handful who did went away admitting there didn't seem to be anything evil about the work.
Because of his media work Winston's face with a thick moustache is well known. He was attacked in the street, abused and sometimes threatened. He received death threats by mail. He didn't even tell his wife because he didn't want to upset her. Yet as he said his experiments could lead to more births of healthy babies, more infertile couples getting the chance to have a baby and a chance to avoid hereditary conditions. To me it seems like we haven't gone too far from the days of the Spanish Inquisition or the witch trials.
Hey thanks heaps for a great site!!!!!!
Hullo John. Today (Saturday) I have seen two items of interest. One is an article in the Herald and the other comes from an atheists blog site.
The Herald article concerns Sikh policemen in Britain. Sikhs have recently been accepted into the police and allowed to wear their turbans in place of helmets. I think this is good as members of a particular culture can handle problems in that cultural neighbourhood and help with language problems. The trouble is those Sikh policemen now want to join the armed police similar to our armed offenders squad. However they don't want to take off their turbans and wear the bullet proof helmets normally used. They want the police to design a bullet proof turban just for them. Imagine if all police members of different races and cultures want the police administration to change the rules and design clothing especially for them. What about all other government institutions such as the hospital system? Should there be a number of different uniforms available covering all cultures? Where would it end?
Too many foreigners coming into our free and open European societies seem to think our societies should change to accommodate them. I would remind them they have left their societies and come to ours. If they want to be integrated here they must follow our rules. In New Zealand we have had problems with totally covered Islamic women refusing to uncover their faces when giving evidence in court or in front of a traffic officer so he can check their faces against the photos on the licences. The difference between them and us is not just culture but is mainly religious culture. Once again religious belief hamstrings societies and progress.
The other topic is to do with euthanasia. It comes from an American atheists website. I didn't know assisted suicide was legal in Oregon. It doesn't appear to have given rise to any evil in that state. In principle I am in favour of voluntary euthanasia provided there are strong safeguards against abuse. The Catholic Church is totally against it on the grounds that only God can take life. No matter how much pain is suffered mentally or physically a person must wait for natural death. Many terminally ill patients need so much morphine to dull pain that they are virually drugged until nearly comatose. Hospital staff will tell you of cases where doctors have given that little bit extra morphine to a patient to hasten the end. When commenting on cases of human suffering the Catholic Church always emphasises it's compassion then proceeds to insist on courses of action which lead to more suffering and very little compassion. Nurses see heart wrenching cases where the patients want to die but they are not allowed to openly intervene. Oregon has a population of just under 3 million so 341 assisted suicides in 10 years is not many. Opponents always use scare tactics such as claiming people who are only depressed will be helped to die. The small Oregon numbers give the lie to that. In fact they suggest fewer people are helped to die than might want to end their lives.
Religious representatives have a right to their opinions but rarely shine much light on a subject like this generally obfuscating the issues.
As for those Sikh policemen in Britain, I’m with you. The police and in fact every government department, business etc should ideally reflect the ethnic make up of society. Ethic and religious groups insist that they should be viewed equally when it comes to entry and treatment in these organisations, but once in they then try to insist on special treatment.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Muslims especially annoy me with their silly dress codes. They say that their women should be able to remain covered, like in court or getting a photographic ID. Yet when I worked in Iran, even as a male, I wasn’t allowed to dress according to my dress code, and Western women had to wear a headscarf and long coat at all times in public. When I've tried to enter mosques overseas I've had to obey their dress code. Even a Catholic priest in the Notre Dame in Paris made me conform to their dress code. When in a Muslim country why do we have to obey their laws but when they come here they don’t have to obey ours? Religion aside, why when I go to the USA am I not allowed to drive on the left because that is what I’m comfortable with? If Muslim women don’t want to uncover their face then they must simply forgo doing anything that requires getting a photographic ID for example. It’s their choice. Things like driver’s licences require certain conditions be met, photographic ID is one of them. Likewise being in public, and especially flying in aircraft, requires that we don’t carry knifes, so if Sikhs can’t leave their daggers at home, then they need to stay at home as well. Do you remember the news item about Sikhs wanting to be able to carry their ceremonial — but very real — daggers onto planes in NZ? They have five things, including their turbans, that they must wear. If Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Christians or whatever refuse to fulfil certain conditions required to gain entrance to particular employment or get a driver’s or firearm’s licence etc, then they must be refused, rather than making exceptions. It’s like MP Nandor Tanchos being allowed to ride a bike without a helmet because of his religion, and they say that we’re all treated equally under the law. Yeah right! Our secular laws that treat everyone equally are not perfect but they are the best we can probably hope to achieve. Otherwise, as you say, where would it end? Would Hindu police recruits insist that their religious caste puts them above the Police Commissioner? Would Muslim police recruits refuse to work with heretics and insist on separate cars, patrols and courts? And why stop at religion? Would police recruits who were also nudists want the right to patrol naked? Would petrol head cops only drive Fords and not Holdens? Would fashion mad policewomen refuse to wear hats because it mussed up their hair or the stab proof vests because they didn’t complement their figure? It would be a nightmare, and we haven’t even thought about other careers.
You said, 'I would remind them they have left their societies and come to ours'. How quickly they forget that they left these societies probably because their freedoms were being abused, but rather than embrace this new culture that has offered them an escape, they try and recreate a mini version of the very society they left. Some politicians (especially in Britain) encourage this cultural diversity, that different communities with different languages, beliefs and even laws should be encouraged, rather than pushing for true integration into society. This is only a recipe for disaster. If you want to move to Britain, France, the US or NZ, then you must be prepared to learn the language, accept the culture and its laws, otherwise stay where you are. But the British are often no better, they move to France or Spain to live and refuse to learn the language. If they are allowed to prosper, religious communities in Britain or NZ will only recreate the very restrictions that these people fled in the first place. We must remain secular, where everyone sees themselves as Kiwis, not as Muslims or Sikhs or Baptists. We must not encourage separate communities, different laws and different employment rights based on religion.
As for euthanasia, I also didn't know assisted suicide was legal in Oregon. I’m definitely a supporter of voluntary euthanasia. It amazes me that the law allows us to euthanize our pets and will even prosecute us if we allow them to suffer unnecessarily. Yet when it comes to our family or ourselves the law insists we must let them die naturally, regardless of the amount of suffering. Why do we have more compassion for animals than for humans?
You said that 'Nurses see heart wrenching cases where the patients want to die but they are not allowed to openly intervene'. In fact they do openly intervene, not to help them die, but to keep them alive unnaturally. If the body is trying to die, following God’s will, then putting them on a respirator and artificially feeding them is just as much an example of 'playing God' as is euthanasia. Ending a life prior to its natural death is just as much a human intervention as prolonging a life past what should have been its natural death. Rather than submitting to God’s will, Christians are fighting it with every marvel of modern medicine they can muster.
Christians are utter hypocrites, pretending to be following God’s will and spouting their superior God-given morals to the rest of us, while they are using man-made medicine to battle God’s powers. But they become cruel when they selfishly refuse to let an incurable person in terrible pain die a natural death or provide the means to painlessly accelerate their inevitable death. Their own selfish and superstitious desires override the compassion they should have for the patient, usually a close family member or friend. Their cruel and selfish desire to keep them alive overrides the intense pain, suffering, indignity, humiliation, and maybe even pleading, in the bed in front of them. These people disgust me. Definitely fight for life when there is hope, but to continue this when all hope has been dashed and replaced with unspeakable suffering is abhorrent.
I read the following article on the Stuff newspaper summary this morning Harrowing Irish church abuse revealed. It's not a new story now. I remember seeing a documentary when an English television team looked into the subject. They went to one of the homes for supposedly wayward girls who were called Magdalens. Young unmarried mothers had their babies stolen and adopted by Catholic families. No one would talk to the journalists. They waited until nuns opened the solid gate and came out onto the street. They tried to talk to the nuns but were ignored.
That and the pedophile priests shows me in spite of it's supposed Christian principles the Catholic Church is no different from any other human organisation which grows large and powerful without having to answer to anybody.
I have just found another treasure: muslim-chef-refused-to-cook-sausages-and-bacon-for-police-officers-breakfasts. Anybody wanting a job cooking plain fare for people like the police, soldiers, firemen etc. are going to be expected to cook bacon in America. This idiot actually thinks the police should pay him for not respecting his religion. If he feels so strongly he should stick to cooking for his own people. Do you remember some years ago a Muslim wanting to sue a takeaway bar for putting bacon on his pizza claiming he had sinned for eating it before he noticed the bacon here in New Zealand? As I asked in the post about Sikhs, where will it end?
In Thursday's Herald, 11th June, there is a piece about another weeping icon in a Greek Orthodox church in Ramia, Israel. I am not sure if it is a painting or a statue of St. George. It's very indistinct and has streaks of oil running down. Not surprisingly Christians have been flocking there. Out of interest I looked up weeping statues on Google. There are a number of websites however I settled on http://www.crystalinks.com/weepingstatues.html. I was surprised to see how many were shown. What are they and how does it happen? Well I work on the sceptics principle that the simplest explanation is the most likely - they are faked except for an occasional natural explanation such as water absorbancy by the material used to make the statue. That was the explanation for one. The eyes had been made from a material different from the rest of the statue and more absorbent. Going back quite a long time one was shown on a current affairs programme on television. In a Catholic country of poor and poorly educated people, probably South America, a roadside statue of the Virgin was weeping clear tears out of one eye and blood red tears out of the other. A sceptical well experienced American lady reporter went to have a look. She got the name of the maker and went to see him. She asked why clear liquid was running out of one eye. He answered it sounded like the glue was running. Why was the other one red? It sounded like the glue was running bringing a bit of red colouring with it. In another case from America a young girl suffering brain damage lay permanently in a deep coma at home. In her room was a statue of the Virgin with oil running down it, mysteriously of course. The father explained it as the Virgin looking over his daughter. Word got around and large numbers of people were calling. The family allowed them in to walk around bed and out. If I recall correctly there was a collection box for offerings. Money wasn't directly asked for. The interested people were only allowed in during the day but not at night so the family could have peace and privacy. Next morning there was fresh oil. There was the usual claim of miraculous cures of people who called in and said a prayer. I suspect the parents were chuckling over the gullibility of people.
Those weeping icons also surprise me. Apart from being bogus as you say, I can’t understand how believers can downgrade god’s powers to such a degree that all he can do these days is make the odd stature cry occasionally and produce a vague image of Jesus or Mary on a piece of toast. Why aren’t they demanding their god gets off his arse and does something about the real problems in the world, rather than mucking around with third rate magic tricks?
Over the last few days there have been two items in the Herald of religious fundamentalist ignorance one funny and one tragic. In Oregan USA a couple refused medical attention for their baby sick with pneumonia. Instead they prayed over the child while watching it deteriorate then die. They were charged with denying the necessities of life. This is the danger of ignorant belief. Similar cases have happened her including allowing a 13 year old boy to die of cancer.
The other concerned a Jewish couple living in a highrise block of flats. When they come out of the front door into a corridor a light automatically comes on. Now to line up with the bible the couple interpret a light as a fire. Jews are forbidden from lighting fires on the Sabbath so they believe that causing the light to come on the Sabbath violates their religion. But they can't stop the light coming on so they wanted to sue the building management for not respecting their religion. The article didn't say if they were successful. I must say it is the first time I have heard such a complaint from Jews. It is usually Muslims who easily get up in arms over supposed slights.
A few years ago a conman in France advertised astrology charts made up for a fee. He made up four standard charts. When people from all around the country ordered them he sent one of the four of course pretending to make them up after getting personal details. If two people from the same town ordered them he would send two different ones just in case they knew each other and compared them. But he was likely to send the same one to people in different parts. Apparently the police didn't see the funny side and charged him with fraud.
A lady appeared on TV warning people against telephone psychics. She took a job as a psychic working alongside several other women. She was given instructions on what to say the main thing being to keep the caller on the line as long as possible. 0900 numbers were used so the longer the call the greater the income. On one call a lady asked her if she should go ahead with medical treatment and an operation advised by her doctor. The "psychic" had a touch of conscience. She didn't want someone taking false advice from her and suffering for it. She tossed the job in and warned people on the television show against ringing psychic lines.
Gullible people are a rich vein for fraudsters to mine.
I guess I can understand why the Oregon couple refused medical help. Imagine you had a sick child and you put your confidence in your local doctor to bring about a cure. However your neighbour, a recent immigrant from Africa, wants you to consult a witch doctor friend of his. You refuse, firmly believing that your doctor is your best hope. The Oregon couple is similar. They have put their confidence in their God to bring about a cure, refusing to consult these doctors that others recommend. They firmly believe that God is their best hope. Just as you fervently believe you're doing the right thing by consulting doctors, they also believe they are doing the right thing by following God. I don’t think we can criticise them on the grounds that they aren’t trying to do the right thing. The danger is, as you say, acting on ‘ignorant belief’. These people must be criticised and punished for failing to use reason to form their beliefs. Obviously, to you and I anyway, you refusing to consult witch doctors is not the same as a religious couple refusing to consult medical doctors. Evidence and reason support the efficacy of doctors, and equally debunk the claims of witch doctors. Likewise there is no evidence of God bringing about cures. These people no doubt love their children and suffer psychologically when they die. We can’t challenge their concern for their children, but we need to do everything we can to destroy their ‘ignorant belief’ in a God that has no interest in curing their children.
It’s a weird thing that Sabbath condition of doing no work. Some observant Jews go to great lengths to get around it. They obviously prepare all their meals and such beforehand, but I saw one TV doco where there are Jewish companies that invent all these devices that start and run appliances automatically so that people don’t have to. Timers switch on heaters and TVs and turn taps on and off at specific times. They even showed a hospital that was designed to run automatically during the Sabbath so that Jews wouldn’t have to lift a finger and break the Sabbath. Some of the devices were like that apartment light that you described, yet these Jews believed that switching on something by breaking an infrared beam with your body was OK, but physically flicking a switch wasn’t. As long as they didn’t physically exert themselves they didn’t class it as work. It makes their god look like an imbecile if the use of modern technology can fool him. Of course from a physics viewpoint, just walking, eating and breathing is performing work, so to really obey the Sabbath they would have to be placed in some sort of suspended animation for the day.
As for that French conman making bogus astrology charts, it’s a shame that the police wouldn’t charge ALL astrologers with fraud, since they can all be show to be bogus. It’s good to see that at least one person operating as a psychic had a ‘touch of conscience’ and quit and spoke out against them. Unfortunately many really do believe in what they do, and you can only have a ‘touch of conscience’ if you know that you’re lying to people. I think many manage to delude themselves as well as their clients. It’s back to that ignorant belief again. Of course there are also many that are just plain crooks. They know what they’re doing is wrong and a lie, but it’s safer than robbing banks or dealing drugs. Either way it’s still criminal.
Thanks for your reply John. Logically you are right about the sincerity of the parents but that attitude can't be allowed. For one thing the parents are making harmful decisions for another human being, albeit their own child. Some time ago I saw a website where an American had gone back over newspaper reports for 50 years and listed cases of child deaths because the parents who were Jehovah's witnesses refused blood transfusions for their children. Imagine if you were blind because your parents had refused treatment for an eye condition on the grounds God would cure it. How would you feel towards your parents now?
As far as the phone psychics go many callers have mental or emotional problems. One woman who was on her own and very lonely spent a fortune on psychic phone lines just to have someone to talk to. The conmen who run the lines take advantage of distressed people who in reality need help. In my area there is a charitable organisation which asks for volunteers to visit people mainly the elderly who have no family or friends.
I'd like to see all forms of fraud prosecuted but it is not as easy as it sounds. The fraudsters are smart enough to use loopholes or alter their techniques to circumvent the law. Some of the laws fail to achieve their aims and end up causing more problems. Look at the anti-smacking law. That law is basically unenforceable unless there is a policeman in every home. In any case it has no effect on serious abuse. Also all the laws in the world won't protect people from themselves.
Unfortunately I doubt if many of the people who need enlightening read your website.
great site guys! it's a 'godsend' haha
Hi John, I recently stubbled upon your site — fantastic by the way.
One thing that could be a useful addition would be a reading/viewing list. I am a fan of Carl Sagan and all his works. The television serie he created back in 79/80 "Cosmos" is a must for everyone. Also his books, especially "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a candle in the dark" are a great read.
Thanks for your support Andrew. As for your suggestion for a ‘reading/viewing list’, are you sure you’re not psychic? I’m actually working on one at this very moment. A while back we put our ‘Recommended Book of the Week’ on our homepage, with the intention that this would be a sample from a list of books or documentaries we would recommend. Hopefully your email will push me to get that list online.
You’re right about Carl Sagan. ‘The Demon Haunted World’ is a classic and could change the thinking of a lot of people if they would only read it. I’ve often wished they would repeat his very successful Cosmos series. That said, there have been a lot of advances in astronomy and cosmology since it was made, such as planetary data and dark matter and dark energy, so parts might be a little dated. However the public interest it generated in astronomy and the universe was amazing, and I would certainly watch it again. What we really need is an updated version containing Sagan’s enthusiasm. It may have even been made, but our TV channels refuse to purchase shows like this, going instead with cheaply made shows featuring lowly celebrities ‘surviving’ on islands or tramping through Libya. I don’t know if you’ve ever watched Penn and Teller: Bullshit!? This is now on its sixth season, yet our TV channels have only shown us the first two seasons. If we rely on TV and our large bookstores to provide us with thought provoking shows and books then we’ll be disappointed.
Denial is always the best outcome for something you don’t understand, It is time that you think about yourself and open your eyes instead to be scarred of it and who knows, you could become a peasant yourself....
Hi Marie. Your vague comments don't actually say what it is that you believe we're denying, that we don't understand and that we're scared of. Is it something to do with the supernatural, the paranormal or pseudoscience, or all three? How can we think about what it is that you have a problem with if you don't mention it or point out any obvious errors? Note that contrary to many people that we expose, we don't claim to be psychic.
And quite frankly I'm surprised that you would think that I would want to become an ignorant peasant. I don't know where you live and work, but in our area you don't see many adverts that say: 'Wanted: Ignorant peasant. Must believe in gods, psychics, alien abductions, crystal healing and all manner of spooky things'.
If what you call 'opening your eyes' would turn me into a peasant, either intellectually or financially, then I think I will continue using reason and evidence rather than simply trusting my eyes.
Read Richard Dawkins The God Delusion. I cannot recommend highly enough! It also explores why religious belief is so ubiquitous.
Hi David, we've all read The God Delusion and agree, it's an excellent book. I've read several of Richard Dawkins books and he would be one of my favourite authors. Not only do I agree with him on most things, he has a great writing style. It's one thing to know what you're talking about but quite another to be able to explain to a layperson. There are several other excellent books I've read on religion and atheism but it is brilliant to see The God Delusion in ordinary bookshops and being read by ordinary people.
Here's a silly belief. My friends used to talk in tongues. They claimed it was the language of angels and the like, I just thought they might need medication. When I say used to talk in tongues what i mean is, they still do, it's the friends part that changed.
John, you are of course entitled to your own views re Jeanette Wilson (or any other medium for that matter), however please refrain from deriding Jeanette (and others) to those among the population who see things differently from the way you apparently do.
Bob, you are of course entitled to your own views re Jeanette Wilson (or any other medium for that matter), however please refrain from praising Jeanette (and others) to those among the population who see things differently from the way you apparently do.
Seriously Bob, I find it strange that you say we are entitled to our opinion, but then ask us not to express it. If we can't express our opinion then you have censored us, we effectively have no opinion if we aren't allowed to express it. Your grand gesture of granting us an opinion is worthless if we must then hide it.
Furthermore, mediums such as Wilson, as well as their supporters, display no hesitation in criticising and deriding skeptics at every opportunity. I'll repeat what I've said before. Jeanette Wilson and other mediums have it in their power to prove it to skeptics that we shouldn't look upon them with contempt and scorn, and yet they all refuse to do so, leaving it up to supporters such as yourself to fight their battles for them. Rather than producing evidence, why is their very survival seemingly based on encouraging others to silence the voice of skeptics?
Thanks for your work on this website. I am an american doctor working in New Zealand, and I'm glad to see there's a skeptic movement afoot here. I'm constantly surprised by the willingness of some to take advantage of people when they're sick and desperate for miracle cures, and your team is obviously working hard to debunk many of these quacks. I'm sometimes tempted to bite my tongue and let people believe what they wish, but your site reminded me that a public outcry and confrontation may actually decrease the amount of lies and deception in the world.
Keep up the good work.
Hi Matt. Thanks for your positive comments. Like you we're also tempted to say nothing on occasion rather than create a fuss, but I suspect that many people have their silly beliefs bolstered when no one challenges them. Often people just want the truth, and if they recount a controversial belief that they've picked up, and if no one challenges this belief, then its veracity is increased in their mind. And this is especially so if they view the person that appears to be agreeing with them as intelligent and well educated, such as doctors and other professionals. Many people in my view continue to hold beliefs in miracle cures etc simply because no one wants to embarrass them by pointing out flaws in their arguments. Adults see it as their responsiblity to correct a child's naive view of the world, yet many are unwilling to do the same for their fellow adults. As long as we smile and nod and politely change the subject, then we must accept some responsiblity for the continuation of silly beliefs in society. The real challenge is to be able to discuss these topics rationally and calmly, without causing offense.
Hello John, I don't know if you subscribe to Rationalist International. If not I can recommend it. I am pasting the contents of their latest email:
Mr Edamaruku had been invited to the same talk show as head of the Indian Rationalists’ Association — the country’s self-appointed sceptic-in-chief. At first the holy man, Pandit Surender Sharma, was reluctant, but eventually he agreed to perform a series of rituals designed to kill Mr Edamaruku live on television. Millions tuned in as the channel cancelled scheduled programming to continue broadcasting the showdown, which can still be viewed on YouTube.
First, the master chanted mantras, then he sprinkled water on his intended victim. He brandished a knife, ruffled the sceptic’s hair and pressed his temples. But after several hours of similar antics, Mr Edamaruku was still very much alive — smiling for the cameras and taunting the furious holy man.
“He was over, finished, completely destroyed!” Mr Edamaruku chuckles triumphantly as he concludes the tale in the Rationalist Centre, his second-floor office in the town of Noida, just outside Delhi.
Rationalising India has never been easy. Given the country’s vast population, its pervasive poverty and its dizzying array of ethnic groups, languages and religions, many deem it impossible.
Nevertheless, Mr Edamaruku has dedicated his life to exposing the charlatans — from levitating village fakirs to televangelist yoga masters — who he says are obstructing an Indian Enlightenment. He has had a busy month, with one guru arrested over prostitution, another caught in a sex-tape scandal, a third kidnapping a female follower and a fourth allegedly causing a stampede that killed 63 people.
This week India’s most popular yoga master, Baba Ramdev, announced plans to launch a political party, promising to cleanse India of corruption and introduce the death penalty for slaughtering cows. Then, on Wednesday, police arrested a couple in Maharashtra state on suspicion of killing five boys on the advice of a tantric master who said their sacrifice would help the childless couple to conceive.
“The immediate goal I have is to stop these fraudulent babas and gurus,” says Mr Edamaruku, 55, a part-time journalist and publisher from the southern state of Kerala. “I want people to make their own decisions. They should not be guided by ignorance, but by knowledge.
“I’d like to see a post-religious society — that would be an ideal dream, but I don’t know how long it would take.”
His organisation traces its origins to the 1930s when the “Thinker’s Library” series of books, published by Britain’s Rationalist Press Association, were first imported to India. They included works by Aldous Huxley, Charles Darwin and H.G. Wells; among the early subscribers was Jawaharlal Nehru, India’s first Prime Minister.
The Indian Rationalist Association was founded officially in Madras in 1949 with the encouragement of the British philosopher Bertrand Russell, who sent a long letter of congratulations. For the next three decades it had no more than 300 members and focused on publishing pamphlets and debating within the country’s intellectual elite.
But since Mr Edamaruku took over in 1985, it has grown into a grass-roots organisation of more than 100,000 members — mainly young professionals, teachers and students — covering most of India. Members now spend much of their time investigating and reverse-engineering “miracles” performed by self-styled holy men who often claim millions of followers and amass huge wealth from donations.
One common trick they expose is levitation, usually done using an accomplice who lies on the ground under a blanket and then raises his upper body while holding out two hockey sticks under the blanket to make it look like his feet are also rising. “It’s quite easy really,” said Mr Edamaruku, who teaches members to perform the tricks in villages and then explains how they are done, or demonstrates them at press conferences.
Other simple tricks include walking on hot coals (the skin does not burn if you walk fast enough) and lying on a bed of nails (your weight is spread evenly across the bed). The “weeping statue” trick is usually done by melting a thin layer of wax covering a small deposit of water.
Some tricks require closer scrutiny. One guru in the state of Andhra Pradesh used to boil a pot of tea using a small fire on his head. The secret was to place a non-conductive pad made of compacted wheat flour between his head and the fire. “I was so excited when I exposed him. I should have been more reasonable but sometimes you get so angry,” he said. “I cried: ‘Look, even I can do this and I’m not a baba — I’m a rationalist!’.”
Exposing such tricks can be risky. A guru called Balti (Bucket) Baba once smashed a burning hot clay pot in Mr Edamaruku’s face after he revealed that the holy man was using a heat resistant pad to pick it up.
The chief rationalist was almost arrested by the government of Kerala for revealing that it was behind an annual apparition of flames in the night sky — in fact, several state officials lighting bonfires on a nearby hill — which attracted millions of pilgrims. Despite his efforts, he admits that people still go to the festival and continue to revere self-styled holy men.
One reason is that Indian politicians nurture and shelter gurus to give them spiritual credibility, use their followers as vote banks, or to mask sexual or criminal activity. That explains why India’s Parliament has never tightened the 1954 Drugs and Magic Remedies Act, under which the maximum punishment is two months in prison and a 2,000 rupee (£29) fine.
Another reason is that educated, middle-class Indians are feeling increasingly alienated from mainstream religion but still in need of spiritual sustenance. “When traditional religion collapses people still need spirituality,” he says. “So they usually go one of two directions: towards extremism and fundamentalism or to these kinds of people.”
Since richer, urban Indians have little time for long pilgrimages orpujas (prayer ceremonies), they are often attracted by holy men who offer instant gratification — for a fee. The development of the Indian media over the past decade has also allowed some holy men to reach ever larger audiences via television and the internet. “Small ones have gone out of business while the big ones have become like corporations,” says Mr Edamaruku.
But the media revolution has also helped Mr Edamaruku, who made 225 appearances on television last year, and gets up to 70 inquiries about membership daily. Thanks to his confrontation in 2008 with the tantric master, the rationalist is now a national celebrity, too.
When the guru’s initial efforts failed, he accused Mr Edamaruku of praying to gods to protect him. “No, I’m an atheist,” came the response. The holy man then said he needed to conduct a ritual that could only be done at night, outdoors, and after he had slept with a woman, drunk alcohol and rubbed himself in ash.
The men agreed to go to an outdoor studio that night — all to no avail. At midnight, the anchor declared the contest over. Reason had prevailed."
Jeremy Page, Delhi
I was reading a short history of the life of Houdini the famous stage magician of the early 20th century. He partly devoted his life to exposing psychics and the like using magic and mental tricks then claiming supernatural abilities. Nothing seems to change in the world. If Houdini came back he would still have work to do. Barnum's dictum seems to be eternally true - there is a sucker born every minute.
To the dum dums at silly idiots.com. im a dick head. im blind and but yet i can see.
To whoever is going to read this, the greatest bible prophecy ever to come to pass occurred in 1948 when the most persecuted the most mightiest the most powerful the most greatest the most deadliest the most secret the most hated nation of Israel was formed. To all the atheists haters of the truth the evolutionists you are all blinded by the truth by wicked spiritual forces and mighty fallen angels that have cosmic powers who dwell in heavenly places far beyond any human can understand that is why the creator of the universe impregnated a womans womb and come in the flesh to defeat Lucifer once and forever as the scripture is written THE WORD BECOME FLESH AND LIVED AMONG US DIED AND ROSE TO HIS GLORY KNOW THAT I DID NOT COME TO BRING PEACE TO THE WORLD BUT TO TURN MEN AGAINEST ONE ANOTHER BECAUSE OF MY NAMES SAKE. WHEN YOU DESIDE TO FOLLOW ME KNOW THIS ALSO THAT YOU WILL HATED BY THE WORLD BECAUSE OF MY NAMES SAKE. We all living in the time of Jacobs trouble the last generation the last world empire, you may ask who are they, they are the European union, the last world empire, who ok they are the revised roman empire there will only be ten in the end the real antichrist of the bible will be the leader of this wicked, wicked group he the AC will bring about a peace treaty in the middle east for a period of 1 week, hip-tad meaning a 7 year period it wont be human power that will bring this to pass it will be Lucifer himself fully inside this man. I believe it to be Hendry Kissinger, now the four horseman, the truth about this is, it is the reign of the antichrist on the earth, white horse peace in the middle east, 3 and a half of glory times made to deceive people, 3 and a half totally wicked judgements more than any human could ever imagine. What to do when this comes about. The real meaning for this number 666 is all to do with money. In the near future it will crash like a 100 cubic mile asteroid crashing into the earth. Then there will be no rich anymore no poor anymore everybody will be equal. If you ever get the chance read a book called privatising the world, and another book that is banned here by Robert Muldoon is called cosmic conspiracy, I have probably the only copy left in new Zealand, last point one that the EVIL WICKED MAN HATING FEMINESTS WILL HATE, TO YOU IT IS NOT BLOODY MOTHER EARTH, IT IS THE LIVING EARTH, IT IS NOT BLOODY MOTHER NATURE, IT IS LIVING NATURE, OK THAT IS IT. LAST COMMENT, AFTER THE TROUBLE OF THOSE DAYS THE SUN WAS DARKENED THE MOON TURNED TO BLOOD THE STARS VANISHED THEN I SAW THE SKY RESEED LIKE A SCROLL BEING ROLLED UP IT WAS THE RIDER ON THE WHITE HORSE THE SON OF MAN THE OMNIPOTENT CREATOR THE LION OF JUDA THE ONE WHO WILL RULE WITH A IRON FIST WEARING POLISHED GOLDEN BREAST PLATES AND EYES BLAZING BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN AND HE TREADS THE WINE PRESS OF FURY OF ALMIGHTY GOD AND HIS JUDGEMENT IS JUST AND TRUE, EVERY EYE IN AND OUTSIDE CREATION WILL SEE HIM EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM, I SAY LOOK UP BECAUSE THERE IS A TIME COMING UPON THE EARTH THAT WILL MIND BOGGLE PEOPLE MORE THAN THEY COULD EVER, EVER IMAGINE, ALL WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN IS NOT BULLSHIT.
Clive, what can we say? You are the perfect example of why unthinking, blind faith in sky fairies has caused so much death, misery and suffering throughout history and still continues to do so today. Your rant is some of the most mindless, paranoid drivel, not to mention poorly punctuated, that it has been our misfortune to read in some time.
Bible prophecy? Surely you realise that that sort of nonsense went out of favour along with reading tea leaves and avoiding black cats? And you seriously believe that Henry Kissinger is the Antichrist? You must be joking! Who do you believe is really Santa Claus? How many people are going to follow a man that is nearly ninety years old into a war against a mythical being? And this mythical being's claim to fame? That he got a young woman pregnant without her knowledge and then allowed the torture and murder of their own son. Maybe your Antichrist is right, monsters like this should be challenged.
And what's this rubbish about Robert Muldoon banning a book called 'Cosmic Conspiracy', and you having the only NZ copy? You do realise Muldoon is dead and his government has been out of power for over a quarter of a century? It never amazes me to learn just how weak your god must be if even the likes of Robert Muldoon can thwart his plans by supposedly just banning a silly book. And even after he's long gone, your ineffectual god still can't have the ban overturned, can't defeat government red tape. He hasn't got a hope against Lucifer then. In reality, there is no ban on that silly book, but obviously your all-knowing god doesn't know that.
You finish with, 'ALL WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN IS NOT BULLSHIT'. You're quite right, it's not all bullshit, and the one statement you made that isn't bullshit is in your opening line where you admit: 'im a dick head'.
I go now to pray and make a sacrifice of a naked virgin to the gods of atheism that you don't occupy any positions of authority or influence in society.
Hi. Did you see that Rural Women New Zealand have given an award to Tineke Verkade and her Waikato-based business Homeopathic Farm Support Ltd.
"Rural Women New Zealand national president Margaret Chapman said rural businesswomen often have to overcome additional geographical and technological challenges in running their businesses. In the case of this year's Supreme Winner she says "Tineke has over the years had to show real resilience and a determination to succeed in the face of skepticism and little belief in alternative methods of healing."
I e-mailed RWNZ bitching about it promoting pseudoscience but I doubt I will get a reply. Below is the e-mail I sent to RWNZ:
I am very disappointed that you have decided to give an award to Tineke Verkade and her Waikato-based business Homeopathic Farm Support Ltd.
Hi Paul. No, we hadn't seen anything about that award to a homoeopathic business. Your email to the RWNZ says it all really. It's great that more people are letting these people know that they are supporting dangerous nonsense. It might make them think more carefully about their next award recipient. Maybe in a weird sense Tineke does deserve some credit for managing to promote her business, but this is at the expense of ignoring what her business is. It's like giving a drug ring an award for their perseverance and the skills required to grow their business in the face of increased police surveillance.
Hullo John, you might or might not know that Ninox Television makers of Sensing Murder is in receivership. There is an article today in the Sunday Herald. Receivers have laid a complaint with the police against a director, John McEwen. It appears payments for programmes due to the company have been siphoned off. As well company property has disappeared.
What has that got to say for the validity of Sensing Murder? When you were criticisng the programme in your blog you were tending to cruel a good money maker. Apparently it was a commercial money spinner sold overseas. What value were the producers' protestations that the psychics were genuine and the programme was not a setup? No doubt Nigel Latta was a godsend as a gullible observer helping to legitimise the show.
If the whole population were well educated and possessed a healthy degree of scepticism shows like this would be laughed off the air. No wonder the phrase "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the public".
Hi Bob. Yes we did know that Ninox was in receivership (as of Feb 26, 2009), but we hadn't heard of the complaint against director John McEwen. In an Oct 2009 article the ODT noted that 'The receivers have said… Ninox… went into receivership to avoid problems with a dysfunctional board', and that 'director John McEwen reassured suppliers it had an exciting future'. It will be interesting to see where all this leads.
It is an unfortunate fact that programs promoting utter nonsense, such as Sensing Murder, are screened in primetime and do attract large audiences. Rubbish sells. Good documentaries are almost non-existent on our screens these days. Look at TV1's attitude, at present it is intermittently screening new episodes of 'Planet Science' on Sundays at lunchtime, merely as a filler until the sports shows come on. What an utter waste!! Neither 'Planet Science' nor a similar show 'Naked Science', which it also occasionally plays as a filler at weird hours, has ever screened in primetime or on a regular basis. Kim Hill was taken off to give us what, more screenings of Coro St? Also missing from our screens are the latest series of the likes of 'Mythbusters', 'The Daily Show with Jon Stewart', 'Penn & Teller's Bullshit' etc, in fact anything intellectual that requires people to think about what is happening in the world around them other than sports, movies, music and fashion.
Look at some of the crap that primetime TV offers us at present, shows like Shortland Street, Coronation Street, Survivor: Heroes vs. Villains, Glee, RadiRadiRah, America's Next Top Model, Danger Beach: Muriwai, Hell's Kitchen, Deal Or No Deal, Desperate Housewives, Destroyed In Seconds, The Crowd Goes Wild, Don't Forget The Lyrics and Dr Who. These are all shows that lower the IQ of those watching them and should contain a mental health warning. I'm not saying that these shows shouldn't be screened for those dullards that are already playing at the top of their intellectual game, but why can't we have some variety and screen some of the many excellent programs on science, history, arts, current events etc. Wasn't the idea of multiple channels to give us variety and to cater for different tastes, so why are the different channels basically clones of each other? The only free to air channel that broadcasts something different is the TAB channel, although it's still low IQ programming. Even a new range of movies would be nice, as we only get a fraction of what has been produced? Do I need to email them and tell them I've actually seen 'The Sound of Music' and 'Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory' so they can stop repeating them? Why does every bloody channel think that it's their mission to broadcast to the idiots in society? Was the same memo mistakenly sent to them all? Quite simply because it is cheap and easy to make crap programs, and there is a large undiscerning audience that is more than willing to watch them. Recently I spied an entire family watching infomercials on a TV in the Warehouse. They watched for the entire time I was in the store. What moron goes downtown and gets captivated by infomercials on a shop TV? Unfortunately the advertisers and the money follows the viewers, and if the majority want to watch brain numbing rubbish, then so be it, seems to be their response. As long as the advertisers sell their products then TV producers will produce rubbish to fit around their ads, and the TV channels will continue to buy it and screen it in primetime. Greed drives the planning of primetime viewing and what new programs will be made. Bob, we both know that the executives, directors, board members and programming staff of TV companies are generally intelligent, educated people, as are even some politicians, and yet they still collude to give us rubbish. If these people can't (or more likely won't) stop producing and screening this nonsense, then what hope is their for their audience — who is often less educated, far more gullible and with a short attention span? These people that are dictating what we view on TV are just as despicable as the Sensing Murder psychics themselves, knowingly lying to us to make money out of deception.
Our guess is that many people that plan and work on these shows that 'investigate' mysteries such ghosts, Bigfoot, aliens, conspiracies etc know only too well that what they are claiming is nonsense, but it is a nonsense that many of their target audience believe in and want to watch. One single episode would have explained why psychics are lying and cheating when they say they are talking to dead murder victims, which of course doesn't make your production company much money, but taking the opposite view lets you produce endless episodes and finance a better lifestyle. No doubt some psychics and their believers are sincere and are truly deluded rather than outright cheats, but the producers, directors, editors, camera crews etc that make these shows will be well aware that they are making a show that is as false as Batman and Harry Potter.
We agree that better education and a little skepticism would greatly reduce these types of shows, so it's actually a little embarrassing that our Aussie friends ditched Sensing Murder early into its first series, whereas we have made five series and many Kiwis are crying out for more, still unable to see that they have been conned. What are Aussies teaching their citizens that we aren't?
'Destroyed in Seconds' has a pretty good scientific basis, other than that I fully agree with you.
The answer to all your questions is simple. Television is used to make money. Television shows are treated like commercial products. If it doesn't sell take it off. Serious programmes can't sell because the number of people who watch them is too small a proportion of viewers to attract advertisers. Coronation Street might have 30% of the viewing public while a science programme might have 3%.
Sky television overcomes this to some extent by making money from subscriptions independently of advertisers. Also it is in their interest to broadcast every type of programme so as to attract the maximum number of subscribers. In Britain I found hundreds of programmes on Sky. Name a subject and it was covered. I joked that there was probably a channel devoted to hanging out washing. There are many news channels from all around the world allowing a wide perspective on world news. There were a large number of channels devoted to science, technology, history etc. We do have Sky here of course but with fewer channels. That is not a bad thing because it is a bit overwhelming in Britain.
I had some sympathy for Marion Hobbs in the last government with her broadcasting charter. She was trying to lift standards. However she was doomed to failure because TVNZ was required to make a profit while quality and profit do not go together. Unfortunately the way to make a profit out of broadcasting is to cater for the lowest common denominator. I've largely given up on television. I prefer to read and pick subjects off the internet.
It is bad enough screening worthless rubbish. What is worse is giving people erroneous information such as convincing them the dead can be contacted, aliens have landed etc. I long for the day when TVNZ will invite the Skeptics society to make some half hour programmes. The trouble is it would probably kill the golden gooses.
Hullo John, I am just musing at the moment. This morning I read an article in the Herald on Sunday regarding IVF treatment. The government is considering approving IVF treatment involving donated sperm and egg for the rare case where both partners are infertile. It is of course opposed by the Catholic Church. I looked up a Catholic website and found the following gem on a readers comments site:
My wife and I have a very strong desire to have more children. After many miscarriages, our doctor (we had already been seeing a reproductive endocrinologist due to the miscarriages) said our last hope was IVF. We had already told him this was off the table due to our religious beliefs. He respected that decision, but IVF is his bread and butter. So we discussed a plan in which we would not fertilize any more eggs than he thought prudent to implant (i.e. we would not freeze any babys or worse). So after much thought, prayer, and tears, we decided to proceed. At this point I was sick about entering into sin with so much pre-meditated thought beforehand. This was not just a slip up, this was full out willful disobedience to the Church and God!
So by now I'm trying to convince myself what we are doing is OK since we are not creating any extra children, and the first alarm goes off when we are signing the paperwork. We had to sign a form that specified what we wanted in the event that we both died in the three days between when they fertilize the eggs and implant them. As unlikely as that situation is, there it was on paper in black and white....only two choices....either destroy the child or donate to science. That was almost a deal breaker. I just couldn't get past that. Even though the odds were one in a million, how could I sign that paper. In the end, I told myself if this was a natural pregnancy, the child would be in my wife, and pass with her.
The second alarm went off when I had to supply my part of the process. I'm a man and I would be lieing if I said I had never fallen to this sin before, but this was different. As I was carrying the beaker to the nurse, I was just thinking that this was part of a new life about to be created....in a lab. It just felt wrong. Alarm number three was when we got the call later that day that two eggs had accepted my sperm. There were two babies of ours in that lab, and we were not there with them. Three days later the babies were implanted in my wife. Seeing the nurse carrying a syringe, knowing our babies were in there; more alarms.
Well, the procedure did not take, the babies died, and there are two new souls in heaven. I now know better than ever why this is a sin, even if we were not creating any additional children. If you are of the mind set that IVF can be acceptable to Catholics, please think about these points long and hard."
Recently I was talking to an old neighbour about the Catholic Church. Apparently years ago he was friends of a young couple who were Catholics. They asked him if he would be godfather to their baby when it was christened. He was very happy to do so. At the church the priest took him aside and asked if he was a Catholic . He said no. Then the priest said he could not be the godfather. The priest was stepping in creating a rift in a friendship. I thought that was a good example of the divisiveness of religion.
Thanks Bob for that example of 'mind conditioning by the Catholic Church', and your excellent comments. It's not really needed, but I can't resist commenting as well.
He says that 'I KNOW what I did was wrong. I have since prayed about it, gone to confession, and been absolved'. Isn't Catholicism wonderful, you can knowingly and wilfully sin, even commit murder it seems, and yet a mere confession and all is forgiven. If these 'sins' are so easily forgiven and forgotten, it makes you wonder if they were all that serious in the eyes of the Catholics in the first place.
This Catholic says they considered IVF 'after many miscarriages'. You'd think that a devoutly religious couple would have realised by now that God is trying to tell them something. He doesn't want them to have children!! It's 'a sign' morons, that's how your god works.
When their doctor suggested IVF, they said that 'We had already told him this was off the table due to our religious beliefs. He respected that decision', but he then convinced them to ignore their religious beliefs and go ahead. How is that respecting their decision?
You mentioned his pathetic cringing attitude to having to supply a sample of sperm. He admits that he is not unfamiliar with masturbation, and acknowledges this is a grave sin, not that it stopped him in past. It is a sin in Catholic eyes because sex and sperm must only be used to create life, and of course there is no chance of that with masturbation. Yet this one special case of masturbation is the one time out of hundreds or thousands of times he has willingly sinned that his sperm could actually lead to creating a new life, through IVF. It could be argued that this case is not a sin at all, and yet he worries about it more than all the rest.
He states that 'the babies died, and there are two new souls in heaven'. As you said, those cells were no more babies than sperm or eggs are babies, and why are there two new souls in heaven? Their God long ago decided that these two were not going to be allowed children, so why would he put two good, working souls into a collection of cells that he knew he was going to abort a few days later? Are they saying their God is stupid or inefficient or that he didn't know that this was going to happen? This moron implores his fellow Catholics to 'please think about these points long and hard'. It is blatantly obvious that very little intelligent thought is involved when devout Catholics think about these issues.
As for that priest stopping your neighbour becoming a godfather, just another example of religious intolerance that is anything but consigned to the history books.
This week there were two interesting articles in the NZ Herald. They weren't displayed prominently and might not have been copied by other papers around the country probably because they are not of huge interest to most people.
1. The Human Rights Commission is updating its statement on human rights in New Zealand. The Commissioner Joris de Bres intended stressing New Zealand is a secular state where religion is a private matter. The Catholic Church immediately objected saying it would undermine it's ability to influence public opinion and political decision making. De Bres answered not as a news item but merely a letter to the editor saying he would review that decision. He had received submissions from the Catholic Church and the Humanist Society. The Catholic Church stressed their importance to society by the fact that in the 2006 census 52.9% of people claimed to be Christians while only 32.2% were listed as "no religion". Mind you 9.8% did not answer. My feeling is most of them could be included under "no religion". I think the next census will be held next year. I would bet the figure for Christian members would be down another 1% possibly more.
The Catholic Church doesn't need special recognition. Any group in our democracy has a right to lobby government or approach the media. The Catholics can take out a full page advertisement in a newspaper anytime they like. Their views are often picked up by the media as news. The problem with Catholics is they are becoming irrelevant and don't like it. Brian Tamaki was asked for his opinion which was predictable that New Zealand is a Christian country, it's institutions underpinned by Christianity.
I accept Christianity has influenced our society. A society is formed by many influences. The Magna Carta for instance had a huge influence in establishing democracies. With democracy came more respect for ordinary people. British democracy underpinned American, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand societies. The Catholic Church is not democratic as was stressed by a recent pope over protests within the church.
I don't want to see our politicians going along to the Catholics asking them what they think about a particular issue or making room for them at conferences as a special privilege.
2. The second article came from the British Telegraph. The Vatican has made ordination of women a crime against the faith. Attempts to ordinate women are regarded as serious crimes along the level of pedophilia. Women attempting to be priests along with those attempting to ordain them are automatically excommunicated. This appears to have come about as a sop to a number of Anglican clergy wanting to convert to Roman Catholicism. Women have been Anglican priests for a long time now but there are moves afoot to allow them to become bishops. It seems women haters in that church can't stomach the idea so are going over to the Vatican.
A Vatican spokesman, Federico Lombardi, said ordination of women is a crime against sacraments while pedophilia is a crime against morals. Treating women who want the same rights as men as religious criminals smacks of Iran or the Spanish Inquisition. Saying pedophilia is a crime against morals seems to overlook the crime against children. Perhaps that is why pedophile priests have been kept away from the law. Pedophilia is not a civil crime just a sin against God which can be treated in the confessional.
Stopping women from becoming priests is out of line with our present day culture. The reasons given for it are flimsy, based on what people thought 2000 years ago. I think that and the refusal to allow priests to marry are nails in the Catholic coffin.
Thanks for letting us know about those two articles Bob, and we agree completely with your comments. The days of the Church controlling governments and the people are thankfully long gone. As you say, they are irrelevant, and about as popular as syphilis. They are still free to propagate their concerns, this article and the back down of The Human Rights Commission proves that. The bishops moan that the wording 'undermines the right of churches to seek to influence public opinion and political decision making'. Bullshit. Every time another child sex abuse case and its associated Vatican cover-ups is revealed 'public opinion and political decision making' is influenced. We have no problem with the Commission altering the phrasing from 'private' to 'personal', but this is really just semantics, they both mean the same thing when the intent is clarified. However we don't agree with the proposal that 'secular state' be deleted from the statement: 'New Zealand is a secular state with no state religion'. This is a fact, and deleting the phrase won't somehow make us into a Christian state. We need to call a spade a spade, rather than pander to the insecurities of the Church.
As for making the ordination of women a crime along the level of paedophilia, and the church is an expert in that particular crime, this is a perfect example why any public or political influence the Church has should be looked upon as demented, biased, corrupt, ignorant and downright evil.
John, I thought you might like to read the following story on Stuff.co.nz — Heavens aligning for fiery possum cure. 'Possum skins burnt to ashes under the right alignment of the Moon and stars could be an alternative to 1080, says a group which wants a $330,000 ratepayer-funded trial to test it.'
Just how stupid are these people??
Very stupid Tom. I thought we'd seen the end of possum peppering. I think the Greens were the last ones to push for its use. It's depressing that reasonably intelligent people can fall for nonsense like this, but then many do. As the article says, Rudolf Steiner dreamt up this bullshit in the 1920s, and no one has yet been able to prove it works, even though many have proved it doesn't. If it did work there would be at least one country on the planet that was using it to control pests, and their data could be produced as evidence to convince our government to seriously consider it. But it seems no one uses it on a scale or in a way that verifies its efficacy. Perhaps because it doesn't bloody work, just as we don't use astrology to predict the weather. If these deluded idiots are so convinced that it works then why aren't they using their own money to fund scientific trials? Any money they spent would be returned a million fold if they produced a safe, organic method of controlling pests that could be marketed worldwide. They could be the Microsoft or Apple of the pest eradication world. What's holding them back? Don't they care enough for our environment and our native species to fork out a few dollars and do the experiments? No, it seems the gutless wonders want the taxpayer to pay so that they can indulge their delusion. Quite similar to that MP renting numerous porn movies on taxpayer funds. Both wankers want to watch fantasies and have you and I pay for it.
Hullo John, the following report from The Press shows that Christians can no longer get away with discriminating against people on the basis of their beliefs. They have to obey the law like everybody else. They were warned some time ago they could not foment hatred against individuals and groups purely on the basis of their beliefs while hiding behind their pulpits. The fact that this man might be quite a decent person and good at coaching means less than his sexuality. It is not far from this back to niggers and good white folks. As David Farrar points out the girls are probably safer with him than with a heterosexual coach.
"The Press
reports:
Yes Bob, Christians continue to drop the ball and reveal just how intolerant they truly are, how obscene their morals are, and how rooted they are in centuries old dogma. And they have the insolence to preach to the rest of us about how we should treat our fellow man.
ALTERNATIVE THERAPIES: There is an article on Stuff.co.nz today reporting a speech made by a professor Shaun Holt to a university audience at Wellington. He criticised all alternative treatments for cancer saying they don't work and can be dangerous. There are a list of them in the article (and below).
True to form the alternate therapy practitioners insisted their therapies do work even if they don't know how. The one which intrigued me was colonic irrigation. This works on the principle that cancer is caused by poisons in the body. So a probe is pushed up the back to wash out the bowel. That reminds me of standard medical practice in the 18th century of administering harsh purgatives and blood letting. Of course homeopathy still works according to homeopaths.
WHAT WORKS
Acupuncture: Can be used to relieve a number of symptoms that are commonly experienced by cancer patients.
Massage therapy: Can help reduce stress, anxiety, pain and other symptoms.
Aromatherapy: Can reduce anxiety, depression, tension, pain and nausea. There are no important safety issues, so aromatherapy is recommended as a pleasant and medically useful treatment.
Art therapy: An excellent option for people with cancer who are looking to reduce symptoms and help with the psychological trauma of a cancer diagnosis.
WHAT DOESN'T WORK
Colonic irrigation: Professor Holt says many people are at risk of adverse effects from this therapy, which he says is as ineffective and dangerous as it is ridiculous.
Cupping: Celebrities photographed with cupping marks have increased the demand for a procedure with no scientific plausibility or research evidence to support its use.
Ear candling: Associated dangers include external burns, obstruction of the ear canal with wax, and perforated eardrums resulting from hot wax dripping on them.
Psychic surgery: The practitioner's hands appear to magically penetrate the patient's body, after which they are removed holding organic matter claimed to be the tumour. Professor Holt says psychic surgeons are basically skilled magicians and the operation is actually an optical illusion using sleight of hand, animal tissue and clotted blood."
I feel strongly about alternative medicine because I think making money out of desperate people is the lowest of the low, especially cancer patients.
Thanks Bob and we couldn't agree more with your comments. As Prof Holt says, 'While some therapies could be useful in helping to reduce symptoms or could improve quality of life, others would not'. As you say this point can not be stressed highly enough, although even Holt himself appears to be guilty of fudging the issue with this comment: 'Prof Holt's "No1 recommendation" was yoga, which was particularly effective for breast cancer patients'. Of course yoga is not effective in curing breast cancer, and people should learn to say exactly what they mean. The article reports the Cancer Society as saying 'Many complementary therapies could help cancer sufferers', which appears to contradict Prof Holt's findings. But again they probably mean one or two might 'reduce symptoms or could improve quality of life' rather than actually cure cancer, which let's be honest here, is the real help that cancer sufferers are seeking. While reducing pain and suffering is vitally important, these treatments need to be clearly separated from those that are trying to cure.
The article also reported that 'Wellington Hospital said its oncologists would not comment on complementary therapies in cancer treatments, because their effect on individuals varied'. What does this nonsense mean? Psychic surgery might work on some patients but not others, it depends on how strongly you believe? This gutless evasion from experts only encourages people to try every alternative treatment that comes their way.
We also read that 'Wellington naturopath Jill Casey said she would recommend homoeopathy as a treatment for cancer patients as it was "fairly innocuous", although this was a treatment Prof Holt said would have no effects'. Again Prof Holt (or perhaps media reporting) is fudging the issue. Homoeopathy could have fatal effects if sufferers elected to be treated with expensive water rather than seeking conventional treatments. The naturopath then parrots the Wellington Hospital oncologists' statement: 'She said complementary therapies were unfairly judged by people who had not tried them, and it was important not to make sweeping statements about how they would affect individuals'. Again, homoeopathy either works or it doesn't (it doesn't), it is not dependant on the individual. Doctors when they suggest antibiotics, codeine, chemotherapy or an X-ray don't say that they might not be effective because human physiology differs greatly from person to person, that X-rays just don't work on some people and antibiotics only seem to work on redheads. Conventional medicines and treatments are proven to have an effect on human physiology, and that's all humans, not just some. Of course some treatments may appear more effective on some people compared to others depending on how advanced an illness is, but chemicals and radiation affect every body they enter. It's like alcohol, it certainly affects individuals differently, some more than others, but it does affect everyone, everyone gets drunk eventually. No one is immune from its effect as alternative therapists try to pretend is sometimes the case with their concoctions and laying on of hands.
This crap from alternative therapists that you can't judge treatments if you haven't personally tried them or that they only work on some people is bullshit. I've never tried a firing squad, but I know they work, and on everyone. These quacks have to continually offer these excuses because they need to be able to 'explain' why their treatments only appear to work infrequently. Of course their treatments never work, they only appear to work when the person just recovered naturally or was healed by conventional treatments that they were also undergoing.
Why do not only doctors and nurses but even plumbers, builders and electricians have to be licensed and yet some uneducated quack can come into our houses, examine us, diagnose an illness and offer a treatment with no licence to practice medicine and no recognised qualifications? Why can some moron attempt to treat cancer by shoving a tube up your arse and her patients don't even wonder why she doesn't have to be licensed, and aren't at all concerned when she says she knows her method is 'not scientifically proven'? Why do authorities believe that unlicensed tradespeople can cause us sufficient harm that we need protection from them, and yet 'pretend doctors' have free reign to practise their nonsense?
More certainly needs to be done to drive these witchdoctors back into their caves and to educate a gullible public into what silly nonsense most alternative therapies really are, how they are wasting their money and quite possibly risking their health, the very thing they are trying to improve. Authorities need to enact new regulations that recognise that these quacks are practising medicine, even though they cunningly try and pretend they're not, and if they can't prove the efficacy, safety etc of their treatments as convention medicine must do, then they must be prosecuted and driven out of business. Like doctors and electricians, they must be prepared to stand behind their claims of expert knowledge and skills.
People are rightly dismissive of any doctor that loses his licence to practice, and yet many happily go to quacks that couldn't even get a license in the first place. The alternative therapist's lack of a license, qualifications and evidence that their treatments work, and their unwillingness to get any of these things, needs to be viewed by the public as deeply suspicious.
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Last Updated Sep 2010 |