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Magnetic Therapy
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I hope that you publish this on your website so to balance the argument. I would like to comment on one or two of the statements made on your website.
I will not go through every paragraph but in hope in by refuting some of the comments I will show that your argument has not been properly thought and to show that all you have done is to pick out the weakest argument put forward for the therapy and using this as evidence against it's benefits. I should also point out that I believe that more than 90% of companies and individuals selling magnetic therapy products do NOT know what they are talking about anyway which makes a very good case for the "blind leading the blind". Including yourselves.
"What if magnets attract iron in our blood"??? What!! who said that? In layman's terms: The iron atoms in Haemoglobin is made of an Fe Atom which has more electrons than protons so has a directional spin. This atom is paramagnetic which means that it will react within magnetic fields especially if passing through a magnetic field at speed. If you increase the spin of an electron you increase energy, increase energy within a cell that is weak in energy then you in turn increase that cells energy and efficiency in doing what it is supposed to do, i.e..e pick up oxygen. NO one is suggesting that a perfectly healthy red blood cell is going to absorb more oxygen than it is supposed to by putting it near a magnetic field but into improve its ability to do it's job better than it did before. Red blood cells can stack together like coins (rouloux) which means their surface area is reduced and therefore it's ability to absorb oxygen is inhibited. Red blood cells will only pass through a capillary one at a time so oxygen is not being delivered into as efficiently around the body as it should, especially in damaged tissue. If you rub the area to improve blood flow the pain will ease due to the fact that you are improving the healing potential but you can't rub 24/7! By improving blood flow to the site of pain and you ease the pain (except where there is swelling). Drink more water (the right amount that is) I add this in brackets in case you say you know someone who drank to much water and they died! What you probably omit to say is what actually happened is that fell into a river and they drowned!!! :-)
All the talk of lying on a magnetic mattress and the blood will all be drawn to the magnet is rubbish and you know it but again it is put into print by a selling company who knows nothing of what they are selling BUT that doesn't make the theory of what really happens false! Why knock it anyway, have you had a bad experience and spent a lot of money on a product and it didn't work. We all do that! Every time we walk into a chemist for drug or potion which all have potential side affects and not guaranteed to work anyway! Magnetic therapy products can be cheap, depending on who you buy from, they can last 50 plus years, again depending on quality and too many people have felt a benefit otherwise why for 10 years I meet people face to face who tell me that it is the only thing that has helped them and they no longer take harmful drugs.
Magnets are safe except in the obvious exclusion of pregnancy and pacemakers. Why pacemakers anyway? Magnetic insoles won't affect a pacemaker, a magnet strap around the ankle won't affect a pacemaker but someone wearing a magnet bracelet putting their arm on someone wearing a pacemaker might! The same for pregnancy but ethics on this point suggest it best not take a chance but if what you are saying they can't have any biological effect, why not!
Not one clinical trial used an item of magnetic jewellery and yet in the British Medical Journal website a reference is made to a magnetic bracelet used in a trial that helped people with osteoarthritis in the hip and knee and yet it was a magnetic wrist strap with a magnet far stronger than any jewellery item on the market. So what happens " lets all go out and sell magnetic jewellery because the BMJ says it works!!! Wrong!
Magnets do not make the skin go red! Why should it? You keep making the same error. In one sentence you quote a companies statement i.e..e magnets can improve circulation" and throughout the next paragraph in reply you use the word "Increase" which have two very different and distinct meanings with latter used to disprove and argument that is plausible! Circulation will only improve into an area that needs it, it is NOT forced to do more than it is supposed to do so why should healthy tissue go red? Rub it and that's not natural and eventually you will to stop because it hurts. That's your body telling you to stop! Magnets don't do this.
As I said I haven't got time to read every paragraph but in every section I see you picking the weakest and obviously ridiculous claim and using that as evidence for your sceptism and its powerful because you have the last word without argument or discussion.
It's easy to print an opinion debunking an idea without the right to reply but if you want to see an excellent response then I suggest you type: dowens6683 into Google and pick "what the sceptic say" This guy has more time than me to read through every article but even then even he knows that some of the claims made by the company he represents are not particularly true especially regarding the "special" magnets that they use. Another case of the blind (the company) leading the blind (the distributor) who has no training other than being recruited off the street one minute and then next minute to a multi level marketing schemes selling seminar.
I look forward to your reply and response. Regards and best wishes regardless.
Ray Padfield-Krala Director MAGNETiC Co BCMA
Sorry Ray but nothing that you've said has made us change our stance. You yourself freely admit that
You condemn us stating that
Your industries must rely on these ridiculous claims because there is no good scientific evidence supporting magnetic therapy. In trying you defend magnetic therapy you simply add to the list of bogus arguments:
This bogus statement of yours is no different than those that you are criticising your associates for using to hoodwink a scientifically illiterate public. We also notice that you don't try and defend your own "obviously ridiculous claim" that we quoted and debunked in our article.
The only thing we would agree with you is when you say
You are right, it is certainly "more than 90%" and we would put it at exactly 100%.
well done, about time, watch out consumer mag
Hi - Stumbled upon your site while surfing the net to see if anyone was challenging the ludicrous claims made in New Zealand about magnet filled underlays. Finding your site was a pleasant surprise.
Hi Tony, thanks for your comment re 'Magnetic Therapy'. It's always nice to get positive feedback.
John, one comment. On your page about magnetic therapy there is a line stating:"Yet everyone knows that the magnetic south pole is on the surface of the earth near the geographical south pole, and anyone can prove this with a simple compass."
You're quite right Devy, in one sense. If you say the north pole of your magnet or compass points to the north then it must be pointing to the south magnetic pole. But there is another way of looking at it.
The way I understand it is that it's all about conventions. There is no difference between the properties of a north pole and a south pole, apart from them being opposite to each other. In a similar way there is no correct up and down, historically the northern hemisphere was called up and the southern down, but it would work equally well the other way. Evidently when the Chinese discovered the magnetic compass they called it a south pointing device, whereas when the Europeans adopted it they decided to call it a north pointing device. Regardless of what names you give the poles, everyone agrees that like poles repel and unlike poles attract. Originally the end of the magnet or compass that pointed north was called the 'north seeking pole'. Not the 'north pole' but simply the pole that would seek or point to the north. It was only later shortened to 'north pole'. It would be technically correct to say the north magnetic pole was in the north if we still said the 'north seeking pole' of the compass was pointing north. If we then ask what magnetic pole would seek or point to the magnetic north, we would answer a south pole. So a 'north seeking pole' must be a south pole. Unfortunately by shortening 'north seeking pole' to 'north pole' we have reversed its meaning. So like up and down, if we say the magnetic north pole is in the north then the end of the compass pointing to it must be a south pole. If instead we say the real north pole of the compass is pointing north, then the magnetic north pole must be to the south.
Thanks for your elaborate explanation and yes I wouldn't go south if told to go to the magnetic north pole. In my thinking, and because I frequently fly airplanes and therefore I have to calculate bearings etc I keep in mind that the earth has a geographic north pole with an exact location and something that is magnetic lying somewhere at that geographic location. Wherever that is, my compas points to that location and therefore I think of it as the magnetic point of the earths geographical north pole in shorth magnetic north pole. For the rest it is like you say convention. If the convention say that my N on the compass is called the north pole of the underlying magnet then that part points (is attracted to) the south pole of another magnet wherever that magnet may be. For now my compass points downward because of those magnets in my shoes :)
Yes, the magnetic therapists are describing the earth as a unipolar magnet or magnetic monopole. While they're not impossible, you would think that they would realise that scientists have never found one and thus they shouldn't claim that the earth is one or that they can produce them quite easily. Just another example that they have no idea what they're talking about.
Hi there,I just listened to yet another BIOMAG advert, and decided to do a search for "BIOMAG scam". And I found your excellent site again :)
Thanks for your comment re our magnetic therapy article, and yes you're right, we should have a link to the Bright's website. I've updated our links page. I'm reading Daniel C Dennett's book 'Breaking the Spell' at the moment and he mentions being a bright. Personally I identify myself as an atheist but I certainly support any movement that gets people away from religion and superstition. For the record I am registered as a bright on their website.
Are there any alternative theories to the intermittant reversal of the earths magnetic field. Is it possible that localised changes in various geological locations can give the impression of a global change? Is it possible that any change may be more on a tectonic geographical basis being reproduced on the other end of the globe in the reverse direction WITHOUT any change in the earths overall magnetic polarity?
Navin, we're not aware of any scientifically supported theories that propose localised, independent magnetic fields. While earth scientists are still unsure of the exact details of why the earth is a giant magnet, there is a consensus that there is only one magnetic field and it moves. It has reduced to zero and also reversed its polarity many times, with over 20 reversals in the last 5 million years. Tests of rock samples from around the world, from different strata, indicate that these reversals are worldwide.
This website covers the basics and is definitely worth a look: 'In the News: Magnetic Flip'
I am by no means a scientist. But, I will tell you why I think this article is misleading. I will tell you briefly an experience I had.
Firstly Tammy, I'm certainly glad that you appear to have achieved some relief from your pain due to fibromyalgia, and long may it continue. However your belief that your son's magnetic toys are the reason for this relief is not convincing. It may well be that magnets do have a positive effect on fibromyalgia, but this is not yet proven. You mentioned a study but failed to name it or provide a reference to it. The only study that I could find was conducted at the University of Virginia and published in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. Several websites mention this study, which can be summarised with the following quotes:
"The results tell us maybe this therapy works, and that maybe more research is justified. You can't draw final conclusions from only one study," said the study's principal investigator Dr. Alan P. Alfano, assistant professor of physical medicine and rehabilitation.
"When we compared the groups, we did not find significant statistical differences in most of the outcome measures," said Ann Gill Taylor, R.N., Ed.D., co-investigator for the study, professor of nursing and director and principal investigator of the Center for Study of Complementary and Alternative Therapies at the University of Virginia. "However, we did find a statistically significant difference in pain intensity reduction for one of the active magnet pad groups."
"To our knowledge, no other studies on magnet therapy have been done in as rigorous a clinical setting as U.Va., and this study was the largest conducted so far," Taylor said. "Nevertheless, larger studies are needed to find clear answers about magnets' safety and efficacy in treating pain."
You take us to task over our debunking of magnets attracting iron in the blood etc, calling it "misleading". The fact is that most companies and websites pushing magnetic therapies claim that magnets work by their influence on iron, ions etc. We show that this is clearly false and that they are fraudulent claims. Our debunking of false theories about how magnets might work is not misleading, it is simply exposing lies. Any supplier or website that needs to spin fairytales to boost customer confidence in their product is a scam. They only do this because there are no facts or evidence available to support their product.
Claiming that magnets actually work by effecting neurotransmitters, you obviously agree that these claims about iron and ions are false. But if you're correct, why aren't magnetic therapists and magnet suppliers offering this explanation as well? Why is it just you? If you're right then you shouldn't be annoyed that we expose these people. As for the neurotransmitters, it is true that a technique know as Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) is used to excite neurons in the brain. This is done to observe brain activity and might also have an effect on some neurological conditions, possibly even fibromyalgia. However studies to date "show very modest effects, if any". Also the magnets used are complex pulsed electromagnets and not the type your son would be playing with. The TMS devices are very expensive and not available to the public. Thus whether expensive and complex pulsed electromagnets can effect neurotransmitters and therefore fibromyalgia is irrelevant. Magnets sold by magnetic therapists are permanent magnets with static fields, not electromagnets with pulsed magnetic fields. We even mentioned in our article that "Pulsed electromagnetic fields have been found to aid healing in some bone fractures and to reduce certain types of pain for example." Why would scientists spend $US25,000 to $US500,000 to buy a TMS device when they could just buy some dirt cheap child's magnetic rocks? Simple really, the child's magnetic rocks don't have any effect.
You ask, if magnets "didn't work, why are pro athletes wearing them…" Athletes wear them for the same reason they wear lucky socks, they are one of the most superstitious groups on the planet. Athletes would put a rotten chicken down their shorts if they thought there was the slightest chance it might improve their game. You also ask, "Why has this particular remedy been around for over 4,000 years?" The fact is that it hasn't, even though many websites falsely claim that the ancient Egyptians and/or Chinese used it. As we noted in our article, "Neither Egyptians nor Chinese knew [of] this therapeutic use of magnets. Egyptians probably didn't even know [of] the existence of magnets". And even if this was true, 4,000 years of use and still no good evidence that it works? What should that tell you?
Your claimed treatment for fibromyalgia by your son's magnetic rocks is in no way holistic. You have deduced that the treatment is very specific — a very specific type, strength and placement of magnet that works by the magnetic field releasing specific neurotransmitters. You even "quote" medical studies to support your claims. There is no mention of the "body, mind and spirit" concept usually associated with holistic healing. Your explanation of why and how the treatment might work is completely conventional and scientific. As for the FDA, they don't support magnetic therapies because there is (to date anyway) no evidence that they work. As for your claim that "There are many reasons why this particular type of remedy would never be looked at, from a medical standpoint, as a legitimate alternative to pain management", this is completely false. As we said, pulsed electromagnets are already being used for pain management in certain cases. I can think of no reason — "from a medical standpoint" — why magnets wouldn't be used if they were shown to work. There is no conspiracy. The "facts" about magnetic therapy are widely available and anyone — you, doctors, scientists, magnet salesmen, FDA employees — could make a huge fortune by competing against the big pharmaceutical companies. This doesn't happen because their product doesn't work, not because pharmaceutical companies have control of the FDA. The FDA is concerned about the public's health, not the profits of the pharmaceutical companies.
Regardless of what the FDA says, these silly magnetic underlays, bracelets, belts, necklaces, inner soles and bottles of magnetic water are being sold in their millions to suckers worldwide. If they really worked everyone that bought one would undergo a miraculous recovery. Their efficacy would be obvious for all to see, regardless of whether the FDA recommended them. Remember that magnets aren't shunned by hospitals because they are illegal, expensive, dangerous or difficult to obtain. They are shunned simply because they don't work.
First I want to say that it was by accidental discovery that led me to further investigate whether or not magnetic rocks were used medically. I found that they were. Now, if you have fibromyalgia, then you would know that there is no way that I could put a magnet or anything else on my areas of pain and make all my problems go away, unless it was a local anesthetic. Fibromyalgia is something that lasts for most of your life. It can only be covered up with medication for the symptoms to completely go away. The holistic approach is one thing that have made may sufferes of this condition hopeful, since doctors are puzzeled by it and simply throw pills in your face rather than finding alternatives. No diet can change fibromyalgia. Lots of physcial therapy and a caring doctor can help with the pain, but even then not make it go completely away.
When I put the magnets on my arm and said that they worked, I wasn't really trying to convince you that they worked, rather I was sharing an experience that I had with them. I have since used medical magnets and they do help with pain, but they only help, not make it go away completely for a long period of time. I believe I made that quite clear, that it was a temporary complete relief. The only thing I was trying to convince you of is that this was not in my head, it worked without me even knowing anything about it. That says something.
With that being said, as a person with FM, the studies that you very clearly belittle are somewhat of a small breakthrough for us patients. As I also stated, I don't think people should throw away their medicine or stop physical therapy, but for people who have this condition, it is wonderful that they are even doing studies to begin with. With the outcome of that particular study, no matter how insignificant you may think it was, it does give hope and some insight for FM suferers. I think it is insensitive to make people feel there is no hope and all that information is insignificant because a doctor used some disclaimer. You go on and on and on in your article about how this doesn't work, questioning this and that. I just think you are misleading people is all. You should post things on both sides of the board IMO.
I will say that calling out these people that intend to make a buck off people's pain is definitely something I support and agree with. These people do need to be called out for damn sure, however, you never looked at anything positive with this type of therapy, not that I can remember anyway. If you did, then refresh my memory if you would. If all you intended to do was bring to light the existence of fraudulent claims and so forth, then you shouldn't have made it sound like a complete joke all together. Unless of course, you think it is a joke, which is exactly what it looks like to me. If that is the case, then you are wrong, and I am proof of that. But, it doesn't matter, I know what I know based on experience and as a FM suferer, and you know because.....??? Please share your experience with me, if you have any.
Thanks for responding. I hope to hear back from you soon.
Tammy, you stated that "The only thing I was trying to convince you of is that this was not in my head, it worked without me even knowing anything about it. That says something." If the effectiveness of magnets to reduce pain is so obvious, even to those initially unaware of their potential effects, then this should be easy to demonstrate. Why then can scientific studies not easily detect this effect? Remember that when researchers use phrases like "statistically significant" it means that only after applying statistical analysis to their data have they been able to detect a positive result. Why does the analgesic effect that is so obvious to sufferers disappear when tested and require statistics to tease it out? Why is a massive improvement for the sufferer in their home reduced to a minor or non-existent improvement under the gaze of science? If you get temporary pain relief whenever you apply the magnets, and according to magnetic therapists other sufferers do too, then why have researchers not been able to conclusively demonstrate this? Are scientists lying, part of your FDA conspiracy?
You say that "I know what I know based on experience", but science has convincingly shown that humans are easily fooled. That's why scientific studies are performed, to demonstrate exactly what is happening, not what people think might be happening. Throughout history people have claimed their "experience" proved all manner of things, from ghosts, demons, monsters and fairies to alien abductions. Sufferers like yourself that continue to use conventional drugs, physical treatments and a myriad of other possible cures can not reliably say what might have brought about some temporary relief. Only scientific studies that change only one thing at a time can make these 'cause and effect' pronouncements. You say you've used medical magnets, which by the way aren't really "medical" magnets, no matter what your supplier might say. If the medical field were using them, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If magnets work for you then I would imagine that you would wear them all the time and be completely pain free. If you say they only seem to work some of the time, then obviously the magnets aren't really doing anything, something else is. If you notice some relief it could simply be the placebo effect, or the mere presence of the weight of the magnets or the strap or tape securing them might be having an effect. It could be that you always put on the magnets after performing a certain activity, and it was that activity that caused the effect and not the magnets. It might be that 36 hours after eating pizza you obtain some relief and the magnets are just a coincidence. You say no diet can change FM, but isn't that like others being adamant that placing a rock on your arm won't affect FM either? You've found by accident one rock that does work, so isn't it equally possible that some as yet untried diet might affect your nervous system and FM? Some people claim back pain relief by wearing a large magnetic belt, but this could simply be because the belt provides better support and reminds the person to take it easy. Also it is very difficult to do double blind experiments with magnets. To test for the placebo effect people can't know whether they have been using magnets or not, but any fool can check whether those things pretending to be magnets really are. Participants would know whether they are part of the magnet group or the control group, and thus the result is unreliable.
You suggest that I'm misrepresenting the scientific research with the statement "the studies that you very clearly belittle". I don't belittle the studies, I merely repeated the comments that the researchers themselves made — that their study was inconclusive and more work needs to be done before they can say that the magnets made any real difference. They are the experts, and lay people shouldn't claim breakthroughs when the experts themselves aren't prepared to do so. You said that you think "it is wonderful that they are even doing studies to begin with… [and] I think it is insensitive to make people feel there is no hope…" No where in our article will you find the suggestion that we believe scientists and doctors shouldn't be doing these studies. On the contrary, these are the very people that should be researching possible cures, not uneducated, unqualified quacks selling magnets over the internet. When a cure for FM is found it will come from these studies. Realistic hope is putting your confidence in modern medical science, which has revolutionised health care. Simply hoping that a magnet will fix your problem is no different than hoping a prayer or magic spell will cure you. It's false hope. You may experience some short-term relief, but there is no evidence that the magnet, prayer or spell caused it.
You claim that we are misleading the public about magnetic therapy, when it is in fact the magnetic therapists that are doing this. They claim that their magnets will treat all manner of aliments from lupus and diabetes to heart disease and cancer, when they have not one shred of good evidence to support these claims. And people worldwide are evidently spending over $5 billion each year on these worthless products. We don't provide details of the things these magnets — as supplied by magnetic therapists — can fix, because there simply aren't any. In the future researchers may say that specific magnets used in a specific way may be effective for specific treatments — FM for example — but that day hasn't yet arrived. Saying magnets may help FM sufferers is little different from saying we may one day have colonies on Mars.
The great majority of suppliers pushing magnets make bogus claim after bogus claim, eg magnets attract the iron in blood, Cleopatra used magnets, magnetic force is the same as our 'life force' etc. You believe magnets may help FM, but do you support these magnetic therapists when they make these other claims or claim their magnets are also effective with 50 or more other aliments? It appears you don't by saying "I will say that calling out these people that intend to make a buck off people's pain is definitely something I support and agree with". But how can you tell the difference? Who are these people that need to be exposed? A supplier that makes a buck off your FM pain is a good guy evidently, but if he sells the same magnets to a cancer sufferer is he now a bad guy? Or do you think magnets affect cancer too? Remember that the cancer sufferer may be as convinced of the magnet's healing power as you are? You might say that you draw the line at cancer since there is no evidence for that, but that's what we say about FM as well, there is no evidence. You want us to give magnets the benefit of the doubt regarding FM, but wouldn't sufferers of other aliments also say the same? So which magnetic therapists are making "a buck off people's pain" in your view? Not your therapist or magnet supplier obviously, but which ones? If you agree that magnetic therapists are dishonest or misleading with some or many of their claims, why can they suddenly be trusted regarding FM?
You said that "you never looked at anything positive with this type of therapy, not that I can remember anyway". In fact we did mention the following:
You say "if you have fibromyalgia, then you would know that there is no way that I could put a magnet or anything else on my areas of pain and make all my problems go away". How do you know that? You did just that to relief your pain, albeit temporarily. Since neither you, doctors or the magnetic therapists know what causes FM, how do you know that magnets can't fix it? You believe magnets have a temporary effect, so why couldn't it also be permanent if used slightly differently? Let's assume magnets somehow temporarily "reset" faulty neurons, couldn't more powerful magnets cause that "reset" to be permanent? My point is, you're criticising me for deciding what magnets are capable of, yet you're doing exactly the same. You're saying magnets can give you temporary pain relief but that "there is no way" that they can treat FM. Why can you decide what magnets might be capable of but not me? You seem to imply that having FM gives you special insight, whereas I would say my detachment allows me to be unbiased. I don't have any real interest as to whether magnets work or not, I just want the truth. I happily support many theories that years ago would have been considered ridiculous. I do this because the evidence now supports them, but the evidence for magnetic therapy is still lacking. And unfortunately testimonials are not evidence.
You say your experience is valid, and ask me to share my experience. My experience is that on investigating the claims of magnetic therapists they are largely bogus and have no medical or scientific support. My experience is that medical advances come from scientists, doctors and hospitals, not an internet website run out of someone's garage. My experience is that magnetic therapists can no more support their claims than can homeopaths, Reiki practitioners or Catholic priests.
I completely understand how someone with an illness that can't be effectively treated by conventional, proven methods might seek out alternative, unproven treatments, but there are thousands of claimed cures out there, and most of them will be bogus. People must decide which ones they believe have potential and which ones don't. Time and money are limited. I'm sure there are many healing claims that you wouldn't even consider, and rightly so in my view. You would say that the evidence that they might be effective just isn't there. Not being in search of a cure, I can be completely objective with my take on magnetic therapy, whereas I suspect you are prepared to overlook some of their dubious claims when FM treatment is discussed, whereas you probably wouldn't when they talk about cancer treatment. You're willing to try something that you accept is a long shot, just to get relief. You're looking for treatments and scientific studies that provide hope, whereas I'm simply asking do these treatments and scientific studies provide good evidence that they work, and the answer is no. Not that magnets don't or can't have an effect, but that it hasn't yet been proven that they do.
This will be my last response in regard to this matter. I do understand what you are saying, and I agree with some of the things you say, but not entirely. You twisted my words a little, and for the sake of argument I will just say, whatever you think man. I don't know as much as you because as I have clearly stated, this was an experience, not a scientific study, but experience alone. I never implied or meant to imply that magnets couldn't treat FM, but it certainly hasn't made all my pain go away outside of the initial discovery. It has helped, and that was the whole point of me contacting you, to share my experience and to say that I think you should report from both sides. Your article IMO failed to report patient's experiences, studies etc. I own several websites and blogs, almost 100 all together. I always try to look at things from both sides in most cases, as it seems more balanced. I am big on backing up what I claim with facts. You clearly did that in your article, but to me, it seemed like you made the whole idea of magnetic therapy a joke, and that was what I disagreed with for the most part. I felt that was unfair to say being that there are many that have had positive experiences with this type of therapy, and have for many years. If it was completely a joke, then the government wouldn't have spent so much money on the few studies they did. Nor would they have conducted more than one study, if the results were not significant at one point.
You believe what you believe based on what you have investigated or whatever, and I respect that. However, I think when it comes to things such as this, you need to make sure that you do not influence people in the wrong direction or make anyone less hopeful, unless it is a complete scam, such as that pain relief spray by Dr..whatever his name is. The one where you spray it under your tongue, I can't even remember now what it was, but that was a complete scam and there were no studies done that could prove otherwise. This stupid product sucked money out of a lot of people who were hopeful and just wanted some relief. So, from that standpoint of wanting to call out those who are fraudulent, I completely agree and respect what you are trying to do.
In the case with magnetic therapy however, there have been studies done, and there have been significant results, whether or not that one particular study was completely conclusive makes no difference in this case because there are other studies that have backed up the claims that magnets can help with certain types of problems. I think the problem with this particular situation is that the results are so sporadic because of the nature of the condition, and that has a lot to with the type of effects magnets have on the body and condition of the patient, IMO. It should be recommended by the FDA that there be more studies done, and that they become available as an alternative pain reliever if the patient has no success otherwise. Or in which case the patient cannot tolerate certain medicines to treat their condition that involves chronic pain. I don't think you can disagree with that.
I think that magnets can help people depending on the issue, bottom line. I don't know for a fact if they could completely make pain go away with all situations, but for me it does help. It did relieve almost all my pain, but only temporarily. Currently they just ease the pain slightly, but are still a big help. I have tendon and ligament damage on top of FM, so it takes more than magnets to completely relieve it being that there is inflammation. I have found, along with my doctor, that they are helping with the recovery of the damage to my arm. I just saw her today actually. I had cancer recently, and my immune system is down currently because of recent radiation treatment. The magnets are helping with circulation in a local area, and that could be why they are helping with the healing according to my own doctor, whereas before the healing was much slower because of my immune system, but I will not go any further into that with you. Obviously my doctor and I are smart enough to not claim this without taking into consideration medication or other changes I have made personally, that is common sense. There was no coincidence in this case. The healing hasn't been remarkable, but they have helped a lot. I think it just depends on the individual and how they respond to the effects of magnets.
There are a lot of things to take into consideration when dealing with this type of therapy, and I think that is a big reason FM still puzzles many doctors, and one reason why magnetic therapy results vary so much. I really don't have the time to discuss this with you anymore, and I say that respectfully. I don't have all the knowledge that you have about this issue, just expeirience for the most part. Obviously you have spent much more time on this than me.
I thought I would give you another perspective is all. Take it or leave it, frankly I am not that concerned about it anymore.
With all that said, I do wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas, and hope you have many blessings in the new year. Take care my friend. And maybe we will run into each other on the net somewhere down the line.
I agree Tammy that many believe they have had "positive experiences" with magnets, but as I've said, equally many believe they have had "positive experiences" with angels, healing crystals and aliens. These claims need to be verified by scientific studies, and to date they have not. Yes scientists and doctors have undertaken studies into magnetic therapy because of course there is a possibility that magnetic fields might influence body functions, and they do. We mentioned that pulsed electromagnets have proven effective in healing some bone fractures, in certain types of pain reduction and that Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation might also have an effect on some neurological conditions. It is only sensible that science would look at magnetic therapy, but people shouldn't confuse this investigation with an endorsement. Over the years science has looked at claims for cold fusion, creationism and even fairies. Although some people believed in these things, science found them baseless. No doubt in the future there will be some medical treatments based on magnetic fields, but they are likely to be vastly different from the magnetic therapy offered by those selling magnetic underlays and magnetised water. Those selling souped-up fridge magnets to relieve pain and cure cancer are dishonest in the extreme when they claim scientific studies support them. Everyone should know that personal experiences (or testimonials) are not evidence, and all they are good for is to encourage and initiate scientific study. It is the scientific studies that will tell you whether personal experiences have any grounding in reality.
I also agree that it's important to consider both sides of a debate, but this concept of "balanced" leads many to believe that both sides are equal, that the evidence and support for each side is "balanced", and that equal time must be allocated to each side. In some scientific debates this is true, but for many others it is blatantly false. For example, is the earth flat or a sphere, does the sun go around the earth or vice versa, which is true — creationism or evolution? Support for the first option in each of these examples does exist, yet it is minuscule when compared to the wealth of evidence supporting the alternative view. In the scientific sphere it would be considered irrational to "report from both sides" or give 'equal time' when one side clearly was not supported by the evidence. And magnetic therapy isn't supported by the evidence. That said, in our article we did spend considerable time looking at the major claims made by magnetic therapists — magnets attract blood, magnets attract ions, magnets cure cancer, magnets were used by Cleopatra, magnetism keeps the planets in orbit etc. It's not our fault that these are all bogus claims. We didn't report the scientific studies that demonstrate these magnetic therapies using over the counter magnets work because there are none. And although you've had several opportunities to highlight the positive studies you claim to have seen, you haven't done so either.
You even say that "it should be recommended by the FDA that there be more studies done". This is an admission that existing studies don't prove the efficacy of magnets, that more work needs to be done to demonstrate an effect. Yet you then say that the FDA should recommend and make magnets "available as an alternative pain reliever". This would destroy the credibility of the FDA if they recommended something that they agreed hadn't been proven effective. I most certainly disagree with this stance. One purpose of the FDA is to prevent people making unsubstantiated health claims and you're suggesting they make some of their own. Magnetic therapy isn't secret or illegal, millions of people already spend (waste) their money on magnets as an "alternative pain reliever", and they don't need the FDA to boost their coffers. If magnets work, they will work regardless of what the FDA say.
I thank you for relating your personal experiences with magnets, and I certainly hope you have found some relief, for whatever reason. Maybe there is a kernel of truth regarding the healing ability of magnets, but it is hidden in a sea of lies and ignorance. If it exists, only robust scientific studies will tease it out. Testimonials are not sufficient, and while they may get scientists thinking, if I was to blindly accept testimonials, I would have to believe in angels, healing crystals and alien abduction as well. I'll await the scientific evidence.
Your debate with Tammy illustrates once again that a person cannot be reasoned out of a belief arrived at without reason being involved to start with... I suspect she doesn't know what the placebo effect is either. Keep up the good work.
"Faith sons works on intellectual levels and live on spirtual planes far above the conflicts produced by unrestrained or unnatural physcial desires. The normal urges of human beings and the natural appetites and impulses of the physical nature are not in conflict with even the highest spiritual attainment except in the minds of ignorant, mistaught, or unfortunaely overconcientious persons" mercy with your fellow man makes you think about slinging the moran, etc. at others not only with love your neighbor but the fact you may have to eat it, further on down the road... faith is eternal, the answers will change here with dogma.
Sorry Michael, but we're not at all sure what you're trying to say. Rather than commenting on magnetic therapy, it just seems to be pseudo-religious nonsense. There are no spiritual planes to be concerned with, and while I agree that faith works on the intellect, it works to subvert the intellect and it brings about those ignorant and poorly educated people you speak of. And yes, unfortunately faith is eternal, in that there will always be people that adopt faith simply as an excuse for not having to think.
Hi John, what is your belief? and all these readers?
hi, the bio magnetic bracelet claims to improve balance and strength. do you know if such claims are true and how it works? i even tested one on myself and it seems to have improved my balance.
Hi Jacques. The simple answer is that those bio magnetic bracelet claims are false. There is no evidence that they work. Maybe you felt better after wearing one, but that was most likely due the placebo effect or some other unknown cause. You are wasting your money. If they really worked doctors would be dispensing them rather than pills and surgery, and all the elderly in rest homes would be wearing them. They're not.
hi john, no i haven't bought them. i don't think i will. thanks for all your information.
Thank you, thank you, and thanks again for being a responsible "debunker". I am so frustrated by these ridiculous claims of miraculous cures, whether by magnets or crystals or chants or pixie dust. I don't know what I find more pathetic: the companies that make millions from these scams, or the gullible simpletons who buy into them, promote them and see any change in their conditions (real or imagined) as "proof" of efficacy. The fact that the majority of folks haven't even a basic understanding of science allows these snake oil peddlers to flourish. If people would take the time to do the proper research and commit themselves to understanding the difference between science and pseudoscience, these scam artists would have to either find an honest way to make a living or start sending emails on behalf of Nigerian princes. Keep fighting the good fight!
Skepticism, I always say, is a virtue.
Thanks Laura. It's always reassuring to hear that there are others out there that can spot a scam when one knocks on their door. And yes, it is frustrating that we still have pushers and users dealing in such nonsense. That's why we must all speak up when someone at work or in the pub says something that sounds ridiculous. We must be the voice of reason for those too lazy to do a little research.
John, I too would be surprised to learn of a well constructed trial that showed effectiveness of permanent magnet therapy. However, I think you are too quick to dismiss the utility of harnessing the placebo effect.
If you read a few reports on clinical trials of "real" drugs, you'll often see things like those taking new pain reliever XYZ had a 55% reduction in pain, while those in the control group taking the placebo reported an average of 40% reduction in pain. That is, while the medicine had a measurable and real effect, most of the benefit of the real medicine is due to the placebo effect.
Therefore, I don't mind the $10 copper bracelets or $15 magnetic insoles for shoes, as the typical person probably does get their money's worth. My only concern is when someone gets bilked for ongoing $60/hr bi-weekly magnetic therapy sessions, or when someone forgoes conventional medicine in a life or death matter like cancer.
You're quite right, due to the placebo effect essentially worthless bracelets and insoles could be giving apparent relief to some users, just like prayer and homoeopathy. But as we both know the placebo effect only works on conditions where the body is in a position to heal itself. Like you our real concern is for those who waste money they can ill-afford and especially those with conditions the placebo effect can't influence, and who consequently neglect real treatments that actually work, regardless of what the mind believes.
In the circumstances that you refer to, we're of the opinion that telling people the truth, that magnets are a waste of money and that their condition will improve by itself in time, also induces the placebo effect. We prefer the placebo effect brought about by the real knowledge that they are going to get better as opposed to that caused by the false knowledge that magnets will cure them. Both will have a similar effect where the condition is self-limiting, but we prefer truth to lies. I guess it's a little like controlling a child's behaviour with the threat that Santa won't bring any toys. It may work but we would prefer that children learn to behave based on what is right and wrong, not on false fears and threats.
Scam?
More and more sceptics that I meet that relent and decide to give one of my products a try write to me to say they they have been converted. We are not talking weeks or months later, in most cases it is hours and quite often right in front of another sceptic!
Ok, so maybe the way I was given to understand how it works is not correct but something is happening and quickly. When I place a Magnetic wristband around a wrist most people feel a tingle or pins and needles in their hands and fingers within seconds or minutes without me saying anything or what they should expect, they tell me! So what is happening? Something is because it happens all too often. Not with every one but then why should it if there is nothing wrong?
Science and analysing things is not the only answer, lack of evidence is not evidence and how many times have science got it wrong? and with drastic and fatal consequences especially where medicine is concerned and these companies make millions. If someone spends £28 and feels a difference I think that is money well spent and certainly a lot cheaper that some of the alternatives.
If at any time whilst I exhibit and meeting people face to face, which I do up and down the country, (unlike the majority of internet marketing web sites) I felt that what I was doing didn't make a difference then believe me I would give up. Sure I have to make a living but not at the expense of "conning" someone out of there hard earned cash especially when I get repeat orders from more than happy customers wanting more for friends and family. These people are not stupid, I speak to them and yes some are very sceptical and most come back to see within that day to say something has happened and they feel a difference. And before you say a wise crack like" yes lighter in the pocket" not so!
Even Doctors that have used my products say that they feel better, same as vets as they too have seen a difference in animals, explain the placebo in animals or is it the owner?
With regard to magnetic poles printed in amongst this thread. Why do people complicate things to to prove a point or to argue against? The simple reason the compass points to the magnetic north area of the geographic north is because the compass needle is a south pole magnet, simple! Opposites attract. Some bright spark deduced that because the needle was marked with an "N" then that "N" was pointing to magnetic south near the geographic north pole because opposites attract. Marking the compass with an "N" caused the confusion and the world was turned the other way round just to prove a point or simply someone trying to be clever!
There are far more dangerous and overpriced therapies out there and there are those that offer nothing better than fridge magnets in fancy jewellery. Over 2.5 Million people bought a rubber strap with a Hologram because it was meant to help you stand on one leg (balance) and David Beckham wore one, great marketing. Now if you want to talk about that lets see the manufacturers and sellers explain how!
Sorry Ray, but you have said nothing that would convince us that your magnetic wristbands cure illnesses. Why should placing a magnetic wristband on people cause 'a tingle or pins and needles in their hands and fingers within seconds or minutes'? If they have a bad back why is an effect felt in their fingers? You say that not everyone feels something since there is nothing wrong with them, but then why are they approaching you and putting one on? It just sounds like the placebo effect to us.
Your other argument seems to be that your magnetic therapies are not as dangerous or overpriced as some other obviously bogus therapies on the market. That's like saying shoplifting a can of Coke is not as serious as bank robbery, which is true, but they're both still crimes. Buying a magnetic wristband may not be as financially crippling as attending a bogus cancer clinic in Mexico, but they are both scams in our view as neither have scientific evidence to support that they will work.
Contrary to your claim, science and analysing things is the only answer. Your analysing the response of your clients and providing their testimonies as evidence is an attempt to do exactly what science does. Unfortunately your analysis and evidence fails to meet a scientific standard. Yes science has made mistakes, and happily gone on to correct them, and the advanced, healthy, safe world that we live in is thanks to their successes, not to the unproven beliefs of sellers of magnetic wristbands.
Aren't pins & needles something to do with putting pressure on nerves or poor circulation? So placing a tight band around your wrist seems like a very good way to ensure you get pins & needles. Can't see how it is helpful though!
I have just read your silly beliefs re magnets and of course I am shocked! If it's true, then we have all been scammed by these people with no credentials selling magnet mats.
I have a friend in Mexico who has taken a certified course using magnets to cure etc here's the page from the website and I would like to know if this also falls into the type of magnets that you are talking about. This doctor's name is Dr. Isaac Goiz (Duran) and the website is www.biomagnetismusa.com What do you think of this doctor as I have tried to find his "credentials and/or resume" but cannot find anything about his past. My Mexican friend is very enthused and has testimonials from people who have been cured of such ailments as cancer and aids.
Thanks for your feedback and scientific viewpoint.
Here's info from the website and, boy are they ever making claims:
All cells are natural viruses reservoirs which are identified genetically by their DNA; which can be there in a latent mode and be activated whenever a specific and non pathogenic bacteria fabricates the mucoprotein or capside that complements the final structure of the virus and by being neutralized energectically can become excited and penetrate in other similar cells for their reproduction and for clinical and / or pathogenic manifestation. In the same way, parasites are natural reservoirs for bacterias, since they feed on them and can sow them for new reproduction.
Our opinion is that BioMagnetism Therapy/ Biomagnetic Pair Therapy as pushed by Goiz is a scam and he presents no evidence to support his claims. Briefly, it's just bogus magnet therapy with a new haircut.
Even without knowing what therapy he was using it is obvious to us that the outrageous claims that Goiz is making are false. He claims that his method can and has cured '* Aids * Alzheimers * Autism * Cancer * Diabetes * Hepatitis * HIV * Lupus * Parkinson's' and many, many other diseases and conditions. He also claims that he 'has very successfully treated more than 350,000 patients with Medicinal Biomagnetism and has trained more than 10,000 Medical Doctors and other Health Therapists from many different countries'. If this many people had been cured of these very serious diseases then the world's media and the world's medical and scientific communities would be clamouring to learn more and to adopt his methods. But they're not, the media are unaware of Goiz's existence and this major revolution in health care, and doctors and scientists are not interested in the slightest in his silly magnets. If '10,000 Medical Doctors and other Health Therapists' in addition to Goiz himself were actually curing people of AIDS and cancer and Alzheimer's then there should be unexplained regions where these illness are decreasing and well below the expected normal incidence. It should be obvious that something special was happening where Goiz and his therapists had clinics. Why hasn't anyone noticed, especially doctors who diagnose someone with AIDS or cancer and who then go to Goiz and are suddenly cured? Why aren't these doctors curious as to what this other doctor might have done? They haven't noticed their ex-patients suddenly being cured because this simply isn't happening. If it were happening, shouldn't we be seeing someone miraculously cured by magnets on Oprah or 60 Minutes every week? And seriously, doctors have to train for years before they can practise and yet Goiz can teach someone how to cure AIDS and cancer in a 'five-day workshop module'. Why are we wasting billions training doctors and nurses and surgeons and funding hospitals and purchasing expensive scanners when someone off the street can learn how to cure all our serious diseases with a five day course and a box of reusable magnets?
As for Goiz's qualfications, we did notice that they're claiming that 'Because of [Goiz's] discovery the Oxford International University from England gave Dr. Isaac Goiz the Doctorate of Philosophy in Bio-energetic Medicine in 1999'. If you search Google for 'Doctorate of Philosophy in Bio-energetic Medicine', one finds that Goiz is apparently the only person on the planet with this qualification which screams worthless! Also Wikipedia describes 'Oxford International University' (now called Bircham) as 'totally bogus', 'pure hokum', that it is 'not accredited by any recognized accreditation agency' and that it has 'no connection to legitimate Oxford University in Great Britain'. Only charlatans have bogus degrees from bogus institutions.
Having a quick read through the webpage it appears to be pure pseudoscience, comments that sound scientific and plausible but are complete nonsense. For example:
The dysfunctions in the organs that support the distortions of the pH are cured by a phenomenon called depolarization. This phenomenon is obtained by applying a magnetic field of the same polarity to each of the biomagnetic poles. This confronts the charges of the BMP and cancels, neutralizes the charges.
Natural magnets of medium intensity do not alter the cellular or tissue entropy. They only put it in order.
Bio-magnetism and bio-energetic pairs are a vibrational phenomenon related to medicine and both can be considered as medicinal therapy and medical science.
Their claim seems to be that bacteria, viruses, fungi and other microbes in the body cause disease and that their magnets will seek out and destroy these bugs:
Bacterias and parasites live and grow in an alkaline enviroment while viruses and fungus live and grow in an acidic enviroment.
The [magnets] identify organs or tissues which support virus, bacterias and other microorganisms
This neutralizes the pH of the area and pathogens inmediately die since they can not survive in a neutral pH enviroment. Cells become healthy and the body starts healing itself, surprisingly fast.
The fact is, if their magnets worked as they claim they would kill all the good microbes and this would kill you. They proudly say that Biomagnetism is 'a Therapy free of side effects'. We view killing the patient as a major side effect, and a fatal one. Of course they will argue that no one has been killed directly as a consequence of using Biomagnetism therapy. All this does is prove that it doesn't work as they claim it does, their silly magnets don't seek out and destroy microbes.
They also try and distance themselves from other magnetic therapies, one might even infer that they don't believe regular magnet therapy even works:
On the website you provided they mention a group that apparently supports Biomagnetism Therapy — The Foundation for Alternative and Integrative Medicine (FAIM) — and they quote part of their article. We guess they hope people won't read the entire article because importantly they also say this about the extraordinary claims made:
none of the research projects have the standard which is acceptable for indexed journals Indeed, without such publications, this therapy cannot go anywhere.
Unfortunately, because of the way this discipline evolved over the years, one is presented by a whole lot of evidence tangled and knotted like a woolen ball. Although all this evidence does generate enthusiasm it is not enough to make an assessment because of lack of a scientific method.
Also very revealing is the person who runs the wbesite, Helena Guerrero, who calls herself a 'Holistic Health Practitioner'. She says, 'I emphasize good nutrition, exercise and bodywork. I offer a very nurturing, relaxing and peaceful environment, which allows you to forget about the outside world, by relaxing and getting in touch with your true being'. No mention whatsoever that she can cure you of AIDS or cancer or other serious diseases, or even not so serious diseases. In fact she goes out of her way to categorically state she CANNOT diagnose or treat disease. Her disclaimer clearly states that:
You should see a Medical Doctor for medical care, and you should view BioMagnetism Therapy care as additional therapy to the medical care provided by a Medical Doctor.
Biomagnetism Therapy is not a substitute for Physician consultation, evaluation, or treatment.
The world's medical and scientific communities are spending billions and have thousands of experts toiling to find cures for AIDS and cancer and the other conditions that BioMagnetism Therapy claims that it can already cure simply, quickly and cheaply. What a huge conspiracy must be at work that they are all willing to completely ignore BioMagnetism Therapy, that covert agents can continually destroy the evidence that Dr Goiz is amassing, and that the hundreds of thousands that have received miracle cures can't be bothered to speak up and let the world know the truth.
Very well said. Thank you and case closed for me and I hope that others read this!
Hi John at Silly Beliefs,
I found your site and started reading it and so many of your observations around "health products" is plausible. Have you heard of the MRS 2000 bed, another electromagnetic type of device brought to America by Dr. Joel Carmichael a chiropractor. He says the science behind it was invented in Russia some years ago and since then it has been modernized into this mattress and simulates an electromagnetic wave similar to what you would find in nature (negative ions). I have used it in a store a few times and find it relaxing but really you don't feel anything... and, I think I would relax anyway as I was in a dark quiet room. As you have a scientific background and are a researcher I would appreciate hearing what you think of it. They sell for about $4000 and I have a friend who purchased two! Not me! I am skeptical until I see results. But, Dr Joel has written a huge manual on each disease and how you can treat it with the device. And, there are fancy pamphlets and websites with all the science that sounds credible to a neophyte. One of the websites is www.mrs2000.com but I have noticed that it's an "independent distributor" which means that all the associates have a website. Also, the sellers are not medical professionals. Dr. Joel has a blog site. I wonder if this device works... they are making some amazing claims... like all these things do. And, I wouldn't have thought a chiropractor would go to such a huge expense bringing this thing to the market place as it certainly couldn't be sold in great volumes due to the price.
Love to hear from you, thanks.
We're sure it won't come as much of a surprise to you that we view the MRS 2000 as yet another scam. We've never heard of it in New Zealand, and there are less chiropractors here and they don't have the same status as they seem to in the US. Not as many people think they're real doctors.
We're aren't scientists and have no medical expertise but to us it just comes across as pseudoscience. As you say the science does sound credible but again it's just scientific terms linked together to produce 'credible sounding' nonsense. We're told that:
MRS 2000+ restores lost energy and crippled cellular resonance to a normal, healthy state of vibration.
And look what they call it, 'MRS 2000+ (Magnetic Resonance Stimulation)'. No doubt they chose this name because people would have heard of the very real, very expensive and very effective health scanner called MRI, Magnetic Resonance Imaging, and want people to associate their product with this device. When you mentioned the MRS 2000 bed all we associated it with were names like Mrs Jones or Miss Universe.
They go on to claim, without referring to any sort of evidence, that:
And yet again, look at their disclaimers:
Hi John. I've had a brief look at your website but have neither the time nor the inclination to read through the entire text content.
I simply want to say — magnetic underlays are not a scam, they work for large numbers of people in New Zealand and I am a recent convert.
I have suffered from severe back pain for 7 years after suffering 2 collapsed vertebrae due to osteoporosis, and have relied heavily on strong painkillers during that time. I was also starting to suffer from aching joints and other problems associated with ageing which made any form of exercise painful. I have watched breakfast television (and the many infomercials) for many years in New Zealand and three months ago I finally decided to purchase a magnetic underlay. I noticed an immediate improvement after sleeping on it for the first night and within a week was completely painfree and able to stop taking all forms of pain relief. I still find it hard to believe that my new-found wellbeing is due to the magnetic underlay, but there is no other explanation. I recently spent a night away from home and woke up in the morning feeling as I always used to — painful hips, stiff knees and a very sore back. These symptoms once again disappeared when I retuned home to my magnetic underlay. I am presently on a 6-week visit to the U.K. and have brought with me a travel version of the magnetic underlay. I have slept in a variety of hotel beds over the last couple of weeks, previously guaranteed to upset my back, but I remain painfree and able to enjoy quite energetic sightseeing.
I realise that this sounds very much like advertising spiel, but I can assure you that it's not. I am an intelligent, logical person with an enquiring mind (I have worked as an IT professional for more than 40 years) and my MO has always been 'question everything, believe nothing'. I am, however, totally convinced as to the efficacy of these underlays and will continue to tell as many friends and acquaintences as I can about this therapy so that they too can enjoy a painfree lifestyle again.
Have you or any of your colleagues with ongoing pain issues ever tried sleeping on a magnetic underlay for a week or two? The proof is in the pudding as they say, so I challenge you to find a group of people with medical conditions requiring ongoing pain relief and ask them to try sleeping on a magnetic underlay for a few weeks. It doesn't have to be a complicated scientific experiment — just ask them to make notes on how they are feeling when they get up every morning and gauge whether or not there is a noticeable improvement. You might be very surprised by the results!
Hi Marilyn. Yes, your comments do sound very much like an advertising spiel, or testimonial as the alternative therapy crowd call them. You say that your 'MO has always been 'question everything, believe nothing'', and yet your very first comment states that you have 'neither the time nor the inclination to read through the entire text content' of our article. That doesn't sound very inquiring to us.
Fortunately none of us have ongoing pain issues so we can't test the magnetic underlays ourselves. And if you haven't even got the 'time nor the inclination to read' our argument, why should we have the time and inclination to find, fund and convince strangers to undergo an experiment on a therapy that we don't even believe in? The revealing question should be why don't the companies that sell these magnetic underlays perform real scientific experiments to prove their claims and silence critics like us? Why can't they give plausible reasons why their magnets might work, or even agree amongst themselves as to how they work? You say that our experiment doesn't have to be a 'complicated scientific experiment', but in fact it does if we are to take the results seriously. You have to use control groups, blinding, randomization, large numbers of participants etc otherwise you can't be confident of your results. You can't find the truth just by asking people what they think. This would be no different to asking a few Christians if they think prayer works.
As we've said, sellers of alternative therapies must fall back on testimonials such as yours because it's all they can offer, because they have no scientific evidence that their product works. Why is it that the experts that have tested these products (as you suggest we do) can find no evidence that they work? Are the experts being fooled or are you? It's like experiment participants who still insist a particular pill or method works, even when they are informed that they were given a placebo. Only a properly conducted experiment can reach a conclusion as to efficacy, simply asking people how they feel is not sufficient.
We will continue to believe that magnetic therapy is a scam until the magnet industry convinces the scientific and medical world that their products do as they claim. Every product or invention that really works, from the printing press and gunpowder to antibiotics and medical scanners, has been grabbed with indecent haste by scientists, doctors, governments and the general public, so why is magnetic therapy still languishing as a quack product? Why, after supposedly thousands of years of proven use, can we still not find magnetic therapy in our hospitals or recommended by doctors? Are we looking at a massive conspiracy or what?
I'd like to add to your comments and ask Marilyn a question. Did you sleep on a non magnetic underlay before buying the biomag? The first time we bought a wool underlay the improvement in warmth and comfort was amazing. The plain bed with a sheet over the mattress was cold conducive to backache etc. even with an under blanket. I haven't found any scientific comment suggesting magnets make any difference whatsoever. The improvement in comfort and back problems etc comes from the soft insulating warmth of wool. That is why so many mothers over the years have put their babies on a sheep skin.
I'm with John. If the makers of the biomag claim their product is better than the conventional wool underlay and presumably charge more can they substantiate it? As far as I can see they put magnets in their underlays to give them an edge over conventional wool underlays claiming they are better with no proof whatsoever except for testimonials. Then they have to warn people with pacemakers not to use them. Why put people with pacemakers at risk when they make no attempt to show the magnets do anything except create possible danger for them?
I would like to see someone, possibly the commerce commission, call on the makers to justify the claims for their product. That also applies to a lot of other products.
I have just read back over 4 years of comments on magnetic healing. With my simple knowledge of science and technology I am amused. So a particle of iron is pulled toward the magnet as it passes across it — so what — even iron particle aside. I sleep with a clock radio beside me. That does not have a permanent magnetic field but an alternating field which will swing electrons back and forth. This action is the base of electrical energy. It seems to me that clock radio must be having far more effect on my blood than the field of a permanent magnet which can only pull once then stop. The people who push magnetic therapy probably have little idea of any technicality and probably don't want to know. They are simply onto a good thing.
The basis of the alternative medicines industry is to take advantage of peoples' ignorance. If they worked I imagine Pharmac would be only too pleased to fund them.
You're quite right Bob, a wool underlay increases comfort and warmth and this alone may reduce back pain, no need for expensive magnets. However if pain reduces, many people jump to false conclusions as to what might have caused it. It's like having a headache and it begins to fade just after you notice a Mr Whippy ice cream truck drive by, and you falsely conclude that Mr Whippy cures headaches. This is where scientific studies must be performed to determine what, if anything, might be responsible for any pain reduction. Of course this is where we must ask why magnet sellers won't perform these studies, especially when in the view of the likes of Marilyn, the positive results are so obvious and so convincing? Why do these results disappear when scientists look for them?
My name is Siegfried from Indonesia, actually I want to buy this magnetic therapy, so my questions are:
1.How much does it cost?
2.Is there any distributor in Indonesia?
3. What is the main benefit/function of magnetic therapy?
Thank you for your attention to my e mail.
Hi Siegfried, you need to read our article on magnetic therapy, since it is a scam, a con, a racket, a swindle, a bogus scheme designed to take money from ignorant people by selling them a worthless product.
You apparently are only interested in pushing this scam in Indonesia, rather than personally seeking its claimed health benefits. Would you be comfortable taking money from your fellow citizens for a product that doesn't work?
Whether you want to know about magnetic therapy in order to sell it to others or to use it to cure your own health problems, we can not recommend it. We repeat, it does not work and selling it is dishonest.
Hey there John, I am a HOF Science and have found your site very useful. Just wanted to say thanks.
Not sure whether you know, but NZQA (NZ's qualification service) has a new achievement standard at Level 1 Science called "Are biomags dangereous".
See link:
I will be referring students to your site for the alternate (and correct) viewpoint.
Thanks for your support Kane, and no, we weren't aware of that NZQA document on biomags. It's good that students are asked to research something that they may well have experience of, and that many may have opposing viewpoints on.
It's also good that kids are being exposed to critical thinking, and perhaps they can pass on some of what they learn to their gullible parents.
Dear Sirs: A number of people have insisted that magnetic fields do not affect biological systems, but recently the Mayo Clicic has disproved this by getting excellent results in the treatment of depression by transcranial megamagnetic therapy — I pointed thia out to Randi as he has lumped magnetic therapy with other hoaxes and got a very angry respose — what do you think? Transcranial megamagnetic therapy has proved effect of magnetic fields on depression.
Hi Warren. We think that people shouldn't confuse Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), a treatment most people will never have heard of, and the magnetic therapy that the public generally thinks of, that involves magnetic bracelets, pendants, belts, insoles, mattress underlays and other silly devices sold by charlatans to cure every ailment from sore backs and arthritis to cancer and AIDS.
We don't say that magnetic fields can't affect biological systems, and we doubt if Randi does either, what we say is that the weak static magnetic fields produced by the insignificant permanent magnets that charlatans place in their bracelets and underlays don't produce the healing effects that they claim. They are a con. Comparing a TMS device worth tens of thousands of dollars and found only in a few hospitals and medical research to a magnetic bracelet is like comparing an MRI scanner to a stethoscope, or a fireworks skyrocket to the space shuttle.
The magnets used in TMS devices are complex pulsed electromagnets, very expensive and not available to the public, whereas magnets sold by magnetic therapists are small permanent magnets with static fields, not pulsed magnetic fields. In our article we tried to explain the difference, and why you can't just talk about magnetic fields and pretend that any field, big or small, static or pulsed, will have the same effect.
Yes the Mayo Clinic has been looking at TMS in relation to depression, but as this Mayo Clinic article — Transcranial magnetic stimulation — states, research is still ongoing: 'Because transcranial magnetic stimulation is a relatively new depression treatment, more studies are needed to determine how effective it is, which treatment techniques work best and whether it has any long-term side effects'. They are not recommending it as a proven cure, suggesting that it be used as a last resort: 'Transcranial magnetic stimulation may be tried when other depression treatments haven't worked'. As for side effects, this Wikipedia article on transcranial magnetic stimulation states that 'Although TMS is often regarded as safe, the greatest acute risk of TMS is the rare occurrence of induced seizures and syncope. More than 16 cases of TMS-related seizure have been reported in the literature, with at least seven reported before the publication of safety guidelines in 1998, and more than nine reported afterwards'. It also notes that 'Studies of the use of TMS and rTMS to treat neurological and psychiatric conditions have shown only modest effects with little confirmation of results'. It also reveals that regarding a TMS machine, 'The magnetic field is about the same strength as an MRI', which is hundreds of times greater than your typical magnet used in the magnetic therapy that the public has general access to.
So yes, as we noted in our article, powerful, pulsed magnetic fields may have a positive effect, but there is no evidence that weak, static magnetic fields as produced by the silly magnets sold on the internet or by mail order work. They are as worthless as prayer. And it is to these worthless magnets that the general public turns to with their aliments, not the Mayo Clinic.
I have just read your article, and couldn't agree more. Well said. As far as I'm concerned, magnetic therapy is a load of rubbish, a scam, and a money-making racket. Websites promoting magnetic products for therapeutic purpose are indeed simply publishing a pack of lies. I have spent a fortune on magnetic products from such websites. Not one of these products did anything for me at all, so I am really grateful that I read your article before being tempted to waste any more money on these useless and expensive items. It's not as if I didn't give the products a fair try, or that I purchased the cheapest ones. I feel that I allowed more than enough time to see if the products worked, and not one of them had the slightest effect. I purchased a magnetic underlay from Australia at great cost including shipping, for arthritis; a magnetic pillow pad for insomnia and a very expensive magnetic bracelet for stiffness in the wrist and fingers. All useless. I have since found alternative ways to deal with these problems, that have been far more effective, and cost me next to nothing. I have Bookmarked your article lest I be tempted at any time to reconsider magnetic therapy. Thank you.
Thanks SJ. It's great to hear from someone who has tried several magnetic therapy products for different complaints and found them all worthless. Of course we are not surprised.
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Last Updated Dec 2011 |