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1. Comment by Ray Padfield-Krala, 12 Feb, 2007

   I hope that you publish this on your website so to balance the argument. I would like to comment on one or two of the statements made on your website.

   I will not go through every paragraph but in hope in by refuting some of the comments I will show that your argument has not been properly thought and to show that all you have done is to pick out the weakest argument put forward for the therapy and using this as evidence against it's benefits. I should also point out that I believe that more than 90% of companies and individuals selling magnetic therapy products do NOT know what they are talking about anyway which makes a very good case for the "blind leading the blind". Including yourselves.

   "What if magnets attract iron in our blood"??? What!! who said that? In layman's terms: The iron atoms in Haemoglobin is made of an Fe Atom which has more electrons than protons so has a directional spin. This atom is paramagnetic which means that it will react within magnetic fields especially if passing through a magnetic field at speed. If you increase the spin of an electron you increase energy, increase energy within a cell that is weak in energy then you in turn increase that cells energy and efficiency in doing what it is supposed to do, i.e..e pick up oxygen. NO one is suggesting that a perfectly healthy red blood cell is going to absorb more oxygen than it is supposed to by putting it near a magnetic field but into improve its ability to do it's job better than it did before. Red blood cells can stack together like coins (rouloux) which means their surface area is reduced and therefore it's ability to absorb oxygen is inhibited. Red blood cells will only pass through a capillary one at a time so oxygen is not being delivered into as efficiently around the body as it should, especially in damaged tissue. If you rub the area to improve blood flow the pain will ease due to the fact that you are improving the healing potential but you can't rub 24/7! By improving blood flow to the site of pain and you ease the pain (except where there is swelling). Drink more water (the right amount that is) I add this in brackets in case you say you know someone who drank to much water and they died! What you probably omit to say is what actually happened is that fell into a river and they drowned!!! :-)

   All the talk of lying on a magnetic mattress and the blood will all be drawn to the magnet is rubbish and you know it but again it is put into print by a selling company who knows nothing of what they are selling BUT that doesn't make the theory of what really happens false! Why knock it anyway, have you had a bad experience and spent a lot of money on a product and it didn't work. We all do that! Every time we walk into a chemist for drug or potion which all have potential side affects and not guaranteed to work anyway! Magnetic therapy products can be cheap, depending on who you buy from, they can last 50 plus years, again depending on quality and too many people have felt a benefit otherwise why for 10 years I meet people face to face who tell me that it is the only thing that has helped them and they no longer take harmful drugs.

   Magnets are safe except in the obvious exclusion of pregnancy and pacemakers. Why pacemakers anyway? Magnetic insoles won't affect a pacemaker, a magnet strap around the ankle won't affect a pacemaker but someone wearing a magnet bracelet putting their arm on someone wearing a pacemaker might! The same for pregnancy but ethics on this point suggest it best not take a chance but if what you are saying they can't have any biological effect, why not!

   Not one clinical trial used an item of magnetic jewellery and yet in the British Medical Journal website a reference is made to a magnetic bracelet used in a trial that helped people with osteoarthritis in the hip and knee and yet it was a magnetic wrist strap with a magnet far stronger than any jewellery item on the market. So what happens " lets all go out and sell magnetic jewellery because the BMJ says it works!!! Wrong!

   Magnets do not make the skin go red! Why should it? You keep making the same error. In one sentence you quote a companies statement i.e..e magnets can improve circulation" and throughout the next paragraph in reply you use the word "Increase" which have two very different and distinct meanings with latter used to disprove and argument that is plausible! Circulation will only improve into an area that needs it, it is NOT forced to do more than it is supposed to do so why should healthy tissue go red? Rub it and that's not natural and eventually you will to stop because it hurts. That's your body telling you to stop! Magnets don't do this.

   As I said I haven't got time to read every paragraph but in every section I see you picking the weakest and obviously ridiculous claim and using that as evidence for your sceptism and its powerful because you have the last word without argument or discussion.

   It's easy to print an opinion debunking an idea without the right to reply but if you want to see an excellent response then I suggest you type: dowens6683 into Google and pick "what the sceptic say" This guy has more time than me to read through every article but even then even he knows that some of the claims made by the company he represents are not particularly true especially regarding the "special" magnets that they use. Another case of the blind (the company) leading the blind (the distributor) who has no training other than being recruited off the street one minute and then next minute to a multi level marketing schemes selling seminar.

   I look forward to your reply and response. Regards and best wishes regardless.

   Ray Padfield-Krala Director MAGNETiC Co BCMA

2. Comment by the 'Silly Beliefs' Team, 14 Feb, 2007

   Sorry Ray but nothing that you've said has made us change our stance. You yourself freely admit that

   "I believe that more than 90% of companies and individuals selling magnetic therapy products do NOT know what they are talking about anyway which makes a very good case for the "blind leading the blind". Including yourselves."

   But don't you understand, we're not following "the blind". It's actually you that is pushing magnetic therapy products based on pseudoscientific claims. As you say, it's your associates that are making the bogus statements, not us, we are merely trying to do the job that you are unable or unwilling to do. Have you sent a similar email to the 90% plus of your magnetic therapy associates pointing out the bogus claims they are making and the disrepute they are bringing upon your industry?

   You condemn us stating that

   "all you have done is to pick out the weakest argument put forward for the therapy" and "in every section I see you picking the weakest and obviously ridiculous claim" and "All the talk of lying on a magnetic mattress and the blood will all be drawn to the magnet is rubbish and you know it."

   Yet it is exactly these weak arguments and ridiculous claims that are selling magnetic therapy products around the world, as you admit. Once we demolish these claims then healing magnets will seem just as silly as healing crystals and healing hands.

   Your industries must rely on these ridiculous claims because there is no good scientific evidence supporting magnetic therapy. In trying you defend magnetic therapy you simply add to the list of bogus arguments:

   "The iron atoms in Haemoglobin is made of an Fe Atom which has more electrons than protons so has a directional spin… If you increase the spin of an electron you increase energy, increase energy within a cell that is weak in energy then you in turn increase that cells energy and efficiency in doing what it is supposed to do…"

   We believe this statement of yours is pure pseudoscience. If an atom has more electrons than protons it becomes an ion, and this change does not cause atoms to develop a "directional spin". While magnetism is related to the "spin" of electrons, magnets don't cause iron atoms to spin as you suggest, or electrons for that matter. However in the next quote you say that magnets increase the spin of electrons, increasing the energy in a cell. Still quite wrong, the energy that drives a cell and our body is not stored in an electron's spin or released by spinning electrons. The main element involved in providing energy to our cells is a molecule called ATP. This nucleotide is broken down as required to release energy. Electron spin as you describe it has nothing to do with a "cells energy and efficiency in doing what it is supposed to do…"

   This bogus statement of yours is no different than those that you are criticising your associates for using to hoodwink a scientifically illiterate public. We also notice that you don't try and defend your own "obviously ridiculous claim" that we quoted and debunked in our article.

   The only thing we would agree with you is when you say

   "I believe that more than 90% of companies and individuals selling magnetic therapy products do NOT know what they are talking about."

   You are right, it is certainly "more than 90%" and we would put it at exactly 100%.

3. Comment by Anonymous, 17 Feb, 2007

   well done, about time, watch out consumer mag

4. Comment by Tony, 18 Aug, 2007

   Hi - Stumbled upon your site while surfing the net to see if anyone was challenging the ludicrous claims made in New Zealand about magnet filled underlays. Finding your site was a pleasant surprise.
   I am a web developer myself and have often been tempted to create a similar site. Was thinking more of an open forum in which people could contribute "for" and "against" opinions/experiences on any "woo" subject. In theory people would be able to get other's opinions and experiences with potential scams before investing their hard earned money. I say "in theory" because it's my experience that those who are attracted to obvious scams would rather have their beliefs supported and confirmed rather than exposed and disproven. I recently saved two people $1400 each from an obvious multi-level marketing scam. They both thanked me, but neither have quite forgiven me yet. Unfortunately woo beliefs are founded on emotions, and it's usually difficult to dampen woo beliefs using logic. I've found that logic disguised as emotion usually works the best. Like your site, well done and keep up the good work. I will visit frequently and spread the word. All the best.

5. Comment by the 'Silly Beliefs' Team, 19 Aug, 2007

   Hi Tony, thanks for your comment re 'Magnetic Therapy'. It's always nice to get positive feedback.
   You should start up an open forum website looking at these silly "woo" subjects. I know there are others out there, but they're only a drop in the ocean compared to the websites pushing all this crap. The more skeptical sites there are the more chance people have of stumbling across one that deals with reality and not fantasy. I agree entirely that many people only want their beliefs supported and not criticised, and it's not just scams, believers in religion, aliens, ghosts and alternative history all read the books and websites that support their beliefs while ignoring the others. And most of these people are never going to visit our website or read the likes of Skeptical Inquirer etc. They are a lost cause. However a few will change their minds if presented with a good argument. Each of us here have managed to occasionally get acquaintances to reject silly beliefs such as the hoax moon landing, astrology, mediums and I personally, just last weekend, got a friend to change her view on UFOs. Thus we see our website as a resource, albeit limited, for people like yourself, people that can maybe take away one or two questions that they can put to friends and family face to face, questions that may force them to re-evaluate their belief regarding a certain "woo" subject. I see this group of people as a 'sitting on the fence' group that can be swayed to change sides. Many take a certain view, be it on religion or UFOs, because when they ask questions they are bombarded with 'convincing' answers from believers, whereas skeptics are seldom heard from. Even when Uncle Joe does doubt we are being abducted by aliens, he usually can't provide good reasons for his position. We also write the odd letter to newspapers challenging religious letters and friends ask why we bother, since these devout believers are never going to change their minds. And I agree, but we don't write for them, even though we address our remarks to them. We write for those anonymous readers that are 'sitting on the fence', those that may be convinced to use reason to reach a conclusion and not blind faith. So we definitely need more people like yourself exposing things like multi-level marketing scams etc. We really do need to start asking people to provide evidence for their beliefs and not just be polite and say 'Well, if that's what you want to believe, I respect that."

6. Comment by Steve, 11 Mar, 2008

   Hi there,I just listened to yet another BIOMAG advert, and decided to do a search for "BIOMAG scam". And I found your excellent site again :)
   Excellent article.
   It looks like we have very similar views of the world.
   I think you ought to add this to your links page — the brights — a movement for all non-religious and non-mystical people.
   "A bright is a person who has a naturalistic worldview. A bright's worldview is free of supernatural and mystical elements. The ethics and actions of a bright are based on a naturalistic worldview."
   Brights Forum. James Randi is a member.
   Keep up the good work.

7. Comment by the 'Silly Beliefs' Team, 11 Mar, 2008

   Thanks for your comment re our magnetic therapy article, and yes you're right, we should have a link to the Bright's website. I've updated our links page. I'm reading Daniel C Dennett's book 'Breaking the Spell' at the moment and he mentions being a bright. Personally I identify myself as an atheist but I certainly support any movement that gets people away from religion and superstition. For the record I am registered as a bright on their website.

8. Comment by Navin, 14 Sep, 2008

   Are there any alternative theories to the intermittant reversal of the earths magnetic field. Is it possible that localised changes in various geological locations can give the impression of a global change? Is it possible that any change may be more on a tectonic geographical basis being reproduced on the other end of the globe in the reverse direction WITHOUT any change in the earths overall magnetic polarity?
   If there was in fact huge changes to the earths global polarity, shouldn't there be more pronounced effects on all celestial factors that depend on gravitational effects, such as tides etc?

9. Comment by the 'Silly Beliefs' Team, 16 Sep, 2008

   Navin, we're not aware of any scientifically supported theories that propose localised, independent magnetic fields. While earth scientists are still unsure of the exact details of why the earth is a giant magnet, there is a consensus that there is only one magnetic field and it moves. It has reduced to zero and also reversed its polarity many times, with over 20 reversals in the last 5 million years. Tests of rock samples from around the world, from different strata, indicate that these reversals are worldwide.
   You mention polarity change causing "pronounced effects on all celestial factors that depend on gravitational effects, such as tides etc." But as you say, tides etc are caused by gravity, not magnetism. We guess that the only changes that you might notice over time was the aurora would move slightly if the magnetic poles moved slightly. If the field simply reversed you wouldn't notice any difference as regards aurora since they don't know the difference between "north" and "south" polarities, but a compass would point in the opposite direction. If the field reduced to zero, we would be exposed to a much higher level of dangerous cosmic rays and solar radiations, which could have seriously implications to life, although this view is debated. Of course all these changes would take thousands of years, not something that would be noticed in a human lifetime.
   Perhaps you could give us some more detail relating to context. Why do you think the current theory of earth's magnetic field is flawed?

   This website covers the basics and is definitely worth a look: 'In the News: Magnetic Flip'

10. Comment by Tammy, 08 Dec, 2008

    I am by no means a scientist. But, I will tell you why I think this article is misleading. I will tell you briefly an experience I had.
    I suffer from a condition known as fibromyalgia. Many may have heard of this, but many do not know much about it, including doctors. Basically people with FM suffer from chronic pain. Now, first off I will tell you I hadn't heard of magnetic therapy prior to my experience, nor would I have thought of it. Here is my brief story:
    One day I was at my computer doing work as usual. My son had left his small magnetic rocks on the desk (they're quite fun to play with actually). The places where I have chronic pain is in my shoulders and arms, to the point where I cannot lift them. I have to work online and I have no choice but to suffer through it. So, I was playing with these rocks after seeing them. My son noticed me playing with them and he told me he wanted to show me something cool he could do with these rocks. He placed a few of the rocks on the top of my hand, and a few underneath. He rolled them around and thought it was so cool that by moving the bottom rocks, the top ones moved as well & looking as if it were magic. Trying to explain why they did this, I decided to show him that if a magnet is strong enough it can do the same through even thicker surfaces. So, getting to the point, I placed the rocks on either side of my upper arm, some in front and some in back. We fooled around with these rocks on my arm for a few minutes, and without going into anymore explanation, miraculously I was able to lift my arm without any pain. Now, at this point I was very confused why all of a sudden my arm had the mobility it did. I put the rocks down, and then started messing with my arm trying to move it in different directions. This level of mobility only lasted a minute or two. Of course, I immediately thought to repeat the same activity to find out if that was the reason. I ended up taping these rocks to my arm, as this was the only way I could get them to stay without my son sitting there holding them. I gave it a minute or two before I repeated the movement. To my surprise, my arm was able to move in directions that before made me yelp in pain.
    This story may sound weird to you, but as a FM sufferer, this discovery blew my mind. I immediately started to do searches for magnetic rocks, and I found tons of information on them. I then stumbled upon a site, some sort of medical site I believe, that had done a study on patients with FM and the effects of magnetic therapy. It wasn't the site itself that conducted the study of course, they were just reporting the findings. I was really shocked that I actually found information on it, not only that, information relative to my condition. I also did some research on the possibilities of why this was shown to have a significant effect on FM patients. For one, the strength of the magnets, and the type of magnet is very important. Two, magnets have been proven to stimulate neurotransmitters. It was very clear to me at this point why these worked in some cases.
    Your article goes into quite some detail about attracting iron in the blood and so forth. This is the part I feel is misleading. I don't believe you have all your facts straight. Let me explain.
    Magnets have shown, and have been proven, that they have an effect on neurotransmitters in the body. Studies have been done on patients with severe depression even. These patients had significant chemical changes in their brain once magnets were applied to a particular location on their head. Basically, magnets fire up these neurotransmitters which tell the brain to release certain chemicals, such has dopamine and serotonin...etc. These particular chemicals are responsible for many social aspects of behavior, including cognitive function. Fibromyalgia is a condition where there may be a deficiency in dopamine, which acts as a natural analgesic in the body. What this means, without going into detail, is that FM patients suffer from hypersensitivity to pain, thus having chronic pain. Without going into much more detail about how they help with certain types of pain, if they didn't work, why are pro athletes wearing them in the locker rooms before and after games? Why has this particular remedy been around for over 4,000 years? I do want to stress that it is important where the magnets are placed, you can't just stick a magnet on your arm or place of pain and think it will help without it being placed appropriately. How in the world I did that on my arm without even knowing how is beyond me, but I ended up placing them as I was supposed to. I also found out that my son's particular magnets were also used as healing magnets, go figure. I do agree however, that many people out there are selling fraudulent magnets. Currently the FDA is regulating claims made by websites that state their magnets help with pain and so forth, when in fact they are too weak and inappropriate for pain management.
    I can tell you one thing, the FDA has been given the results of these studies, and the results are medically significant. Do you know why the FDA hasn't responded? I can tell you, in my own opinion, that if the FDA approved this form of pain management and it was finally brought to the attention of the American people, that some of the biggest pharmaceutical companies would be hit hard financially. Being that conventional doctors do not support holistic medicine, there would be a big conflict between what regular doctors are taught, and what the patient asks for information about. Patients then might turn to holistic medicine, and possibly putting themselves at risk by not taking the appropriate medication for their condition yadayada. There are many reasons why this particular type of remedy would never be looked at, from a medical standpoint, as a legitimate alternative to pain management.
    I will say with confidence and experience that this does work for my particular condition. Of the patients studied, the group that received the appropriate magnets, over 70% reported a significant improvement in pain. And by the way, the study also included non-active magnets where only 18% reported little change in their pain. Not only did I discover this to be true accidentally, but it has been proven. I think maybe you should add that in your article as well rather than focusing so much on it attracting iron in the body and coming up with theories as to why it couldn't work. I can tell you without a doubt, they do work. I am not going to throw out the medication that was given to me for my condition, however, they are certainly helpful in my physical therapy. I wouldn't be so quick to say they are a joke, you would be wrong.

11. Comment by the 'Silly Beliefs' Team, 08 Dec, 2008

    Firstly Tammy, I'm certainly glad that you appear to have achieved some relief from your pain due to fibromyalgia, and long may it continue. However your belief that your son's magnetic toys are the reason for this relief is not convincing. It may well be that magnets do have a positive effect on fibromyalgia, but this is not yet proven. You mentioned a study but failed to name it or provide a reference to it. The only study that I could find was conducted at the University of Virginia and published in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. Several websites mention this study, which can be summarised with the following quotes:

    "Although the overall results of the study were inconclusive, magnet therapy reduced fibromyalgia pain intensity enough in one group of study participants to be "clinically meaningful," the researchers said.

    "The results tell us maybe this therapy works, and that maybe more research is justified. You can't draw final conclusions from only one study," said the study's principal investigator Dr. Alan P. Alfano, assistant professor of physical medicine and rehabilitation.

    "When we compared the groups, we did not find significant statistical differences in most of the outcome measures," said Ann Gill Taylor, R.N., Ed.D., co-investigator for the study, professor of nursing and director and principal investigator of the Center for Study of Complementary and Alternative Therapies at the University of Virginia. "However, we did find a statistically significant difference in pain intensity reduction for one of the active magnet pad groups."

    "To our knowledge, no other studies on magnet therapy have been done in as rigorous a clinical setting as U.Va., and this study was the largest conducted so far," Taylor said. "Nevertheless, larger studies are needed to find clear answers about magnets' safety and efficacy in treating pain."

    As the researchers make clear with phrases such as "the overall results of the study were inconclusive", "maybe this therapy works", "maybe more research is justified" and "You can't draw final conclusions from only one study", this study proves nothing. Your anecdotal account proves nothing either, since your recovery could have been caused by a myriad of things rather than your son's magnets. A change in diet, altered medication (which you say you are continuing to take), a change in lifestyle, the placebo effect, a new mattress etc. Only scientific studies that examine many participants and that control for these things can be relied on, and even you accept this since you quote a scientific study to support your claims.

    You take us to task over our debunking of magnets attracting iron in the blood etc, calling it "misleading". The fact is that most companies and websites pushing magnetic therapies claim that magnets work by their influence on iron, ions etc. We show that this is clearly false and that they are fraudulent claims. Our debunking of false theories about how magnets might work is not misleading, it is simply exposing lies. Any supplier or website that needs to spin fairytales to boost customer confidence in their product is a scam. They only do this because there are no facts or evidence available to support their product.

    Claiming that magnets actually work by effecting neurotransmitters, you obviously agree that these claims about iron and ions are false. But if you're correct, why aren't magnetic therapists and magnet suppliers offering this explanation as well? Why is it just you? If you're right then you shouldn't be annoyed that we expose these people. As for the neurotransmitters, it is true that a technique know as Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) is used to excite neurons in the brain. This is done to observe brain activity and might also have an effect on some neurological conditions, possibly even fibromyalgia. However studies to date "show very modest effects, if any". Also the magnets used are complex pulsed electromagnets and not the type your son would be playing with. The TMS devices are very expensive and not available to the public. Thus whether expensive and complex pulsed electromagnets can effect neurotransmitters and therefore fibromyalgia is irrelevant. Magnets sold by magnetic therapists are permanent magnets with static fields, not electromagnets with pulsed magnetic fields. We even mentioned in our article that "Pulsed electromagnetic fields have been found to aid healing in some bone fractures and to reduce certain types of pain for example." Why would scientists spend $US25,000 to $US500,000 to buy a TMS device when they could just buy some dirt cheap child's magnetic rocks? Simple really, the child's magnetic rocks don't have any effect.

    You ask, if magnets "didn't work, why are pro athletes wearing them…" Athletes wear them for the same reason they wear lucky socks, they are one of the most superstitious groups on the planet. Athletes would put a rotten chicken down their shorts if they thought there was the slightest chance it might improve their game. You also ask, "Why has this particular remedy been around for over 4,000 years?" The fact is that it hasn't, even though many websites falsely claim that the ancient Egyptians and/or Chinese used it. As we noted in our article, "Neither Egyptians nor Chinese knew [of] this therapeutic use of magnets. Egyptians probably didn't even know [of] the existence of magnets". And even if this was true, 4,000 years of use and still no good evidence that it works? What should that tell you?

    Your claimed treatment for fibromyalgia by your son's magnetic rocks is in no way holistic. You have deduced that the treatment is very specific — a very specific type, strength and placement of magnet that works by the magnetic field releasing specific neurotransmitters. You even "quote" medical studies to support your claims. There is no mention of the "body, mind and spirit" concept usually associated with holistic healing. Your explanation of why and how the treatment might work is completely conventional and scientific. As for the FDA, they don't support magnetic therapies because there is (to date anyway) no evidence that they work. As for your claim that "There are many reasons why this particular type of remedy would never be looked at, from a medical standpoint, as a legitimate alternative to pain management", this is completely false. As we said, pulsed electromagnets are already being used for pain management in certain cases. I can think of no reason — "from a medical standpoint" — why magnets wouldn't be used if they were shown to work. There is no conspiracy. The "facts" about magnetic therapy are widely available and anyone — you, doctors, scientists, magnet salesmen, FDA employees — could make a huge fortune by competing against the big pharmaceutical companies. This doesn't happen because their product doesn't work, not because pharmaceutical companies have control of the FDA. The FDA is concerned about the public's health, not the profits of the pharmaceutical companies.

    Regardless of what the FDA says, these silly magnetic underlays, bracelets, belts, necklaces, inner soles and bottles of magnetic water are being sold in their millions to suckers worldwide. If they really worked everyone that bought one would undergo a miraculous recovery. Their efficacy would be obvious for all to see, regardless of whether the FDA recommended them. Remember that magnets aren't shunned by hospitals because they are illegal, expensive, dangerous or difficult to obtain. They are shunned simply because they don't work.

12. Comment by Tammy, 09 Dec, 2008

    First I want to say that it was by accidental discovery that led me to further investigate whether or not magnetic rocks were used medically. I found that they were. Now, if you have fibromyalgia, then you would know that there is no way that I could put a magnet or anything else on my areas of pain and make all my problems go away, unless it was a local anesthetic. Fibromyalgia is something that lasts for most of your life. It can only be covered up with medication for the symptoms to completely go away. The holistic approach is one thing that have made may sufferes of this condition hopeful, since doctors are puzzeled by it and simply throw pills in your face rather than finding alternatives. No diet can change fibromyalgia. Lots of physcial therapy and a caring doctor can help with the pain, but even then not make it go completely away.

    When I put the magnets on my arm and said that they worked, I wasn't really trying to convince you that they worked, rather I was sharing an experience that I had with them. I have since used medical magnets and they do help with pain, but they only help, not make it go away completely for a long period of time. I believe I made that quite clear, that it was a temporary complete relief. The only thing I was trying to convince you of is that this was not in my head, it worked without me even knowing anything about it. That says something.

    With that being said, as a person with FM, the studies that you very clearly belittle are somewhat of a small breakthrough for us patients. As I also stated, I don't think people should throw away their medicine or stop physical therapy, but for people who have this condition, it is wonderful that they are even doing studies to begin with. With the outcome of that particular study, no matter how insignificant you may think it was, it does give hope and some insight for FM suferers. I think it is insensitive to make people feel there is no hope and all that information is insignificant because a doctor used some disclaimer. You go on and on and on in your article about how this doesn't work, questioning this and that. I just think you are misleading people is all. You should post things on both sides of the board IMO.

    I will say that calling out these people that intend to make a buck off people's pain is definitely something I support and agree with. These people do need to be called out for damn sure, however, you never looked at anything positive with this type of therapy, not that I can remember anyway. If you did, then refresh my memory if you would. If all you intended to do was bring to light the existence of fraudulent claims and so forth, then you shouldn't have made it sound like a complete joke all together. Unless of course, you think it is a joke, which is exactly what it looks like to me. If that is the case, then you are wrong, and I am proof of that. But, it doesn't matter, I know what I know based on experience and as a FM suferer, and you know because.....??? Please share your experience with me, if you have any.

    Thanks for responding. I hope to hear back from you soon.

13. Comment by the 'Silly Beliefs' Team, 11 Dec, 2008

    Tammy, you stated that "The only thing I was trying to convince you of is that this was not in my head, it worked without me even knowing anything about it. That says something." If the effectiveness of magnets to reduce pain is so obvious, even to those initially unaware of their potential effects, then this should be easy to demonstrate. Why then can scientific studies not easily detect this effect? Remember that when researchers use phrases like "statistically significant" it means that only after applying statistical analysis to their data have they been able to detect a positive result. Why does the analgesic effect that is so obvious to sufferers disappear when tested and require statistics to tease it out? Why is a massive improvement for the sufferer in their home reduced to a minor or non-existent improvement under the gaze of science? If you get temporary pain relief whenever you apply the magnets, and according to magnetic therapists other sufferers do too, then why have researchers not been able to conclusively demonstrate this? Are scientists lying, part of your FDA conspiracy?

    You say that "I know what I know based on experience", but science has convincingly shown that humans are easily fooled. That's why scientific studies are performed, to demonstrate exactly what is happening, not what people think might be happening. Throughout history people have claimed their "experience" proved all manner of things, from ghosts, demons, monsters and fairies to alien abductions. Sufferers like yourself that continue to use conventional drugs, physical treatments and a myriad of other possible cures can not reliably say what might have brought about some temporary relief. Only scientific studies that change only one thing at a time can make these 'cause and effect' pronouncements. You say you've used medical magnets, which by the way aren't really "medical" magnets, no matter what your supplier might say. If the medical field were using them, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If magnets work for you then I would imagine that you would wear them all the time and be completely pain free. If you say they only seem to work some of the time, then obviously the magnets aren't really doing anything, something else is. If you notice some relief it could simply be the placebo effect, or the mere presence of the weight of the magnets or the strap or tape securing them might be having an effect. It could be that you always put on the magnets after performing a certain activity, and it was that activity that caused the effect and not the magnets. It might be that 36 hours after eating pizza you obtain some relief and the magnets are just a coincidence. You say no diet can change FM, but isn't that like others being adamant that placing a rock on your arm won't affect FM either? You've found by accident one rock that does work, so isn't it equally possible that some as yet untried diet might affect your nervous system and FM? Some people claim back pain relief by wearing a large magnetic belt, but this could simply be because the belt provides better support and reminds the person to take it easy. Also it is very difficult to do double blind experiments with magnets. To test for the placebo effect people can't know whether they have been using magnets or not, but any fool can check whether those things pretending to be magnets really are. Participants would know whether they are part of the magnet group or the control group, and thus the result is unreliable.

    You suggest that I'm misrepresenting the scientific research with the statement "the studies that you very clearly belittle". I don't belittle the studies, I merely repeated the comments that the researchers themselves made — that their study was inconclusive and more work needs to be done before they can say that the magnets made any real difference. They are the experts, and lay people shouldn't claim breakthroughs when the experts themselves aren't prepared to do so. You said that you think "it is wonderful that they are even doing studies to begin with… [and] I think it is insensitive to make people feel there is no hope…" No where in our article will you find the suggestion that we believe scientists and doctors shouldn't be doing these studies. On the contrary, these are the very people that should be researching possible cures, not uneducated, unqualified quacks selling magnets over the internet. When a cure for FM is found it will come from these studies. Realistic hope is putting your confidence in modern medical science, which has revolutionised health care. Simply hoping that a magnet will fix your problem is no different than hoping a prayer or magic spell will cure you. It's false hope. You may experience some short-term relief, but there is no evidence that the magnet, prayer or spell caused it.

    You claim that we are misleading the public about magnetic therapy, when it is in fact the magnetic therapists that are doing this. They claim that their magnets will treat all manner of aliments from lupus and diabetes to heart disease and cancer, when they have not one shred of good evidence to support these claims. And people worldwide are evidently spending over $5 billion each year on these worthless products. We don't provide details of the things these magnets — as supplied by magnetic therapists — can fix, because there simply aren't any. In the future researchers may say that specific magnets used in a specific way may be effective for specific treatments — FM for example — but that day hasn't yet arrived. Saying magnets may help FM sufferers is little different from saying we may one day have colonies on Mars.

    The great majority of suppliers pushing magnets make bogus claim after bogus claim, eg magnets attract the iron in blood, Cleopatra used magnets, magnetic force is the same as our 'life force' etc. You believe magnets may help FM, but do you support these magnetic therapists when they make these other claims or claim their magnets are also effective with 50 or more other aliments? It appears you don't by saying "I will say that calling out these people that intend to make a buck off people's pain is definitely something I support and agree with". But how can you tell the difference? Who are these people that need to be exposed? A supplier that makes a buck off your FM pain is a good guy evidently, but if he sells the same magnets to a cancer sufferer is he now a bad guy? Or do you think magnets affect cancer too? Remember that the cancer sufferer may be as convinced of the magnet's healing power as you are? You might say that you draw the line at cancer since there is no evidence for that, but that's what we say about FM as well, there is no evidence. You want us to give magnets the benefit of the doubt regarding FM, but wouldn't sufferers of other aliments also say the same? So which magnetic therapists are making "a buck off people's pain" in your view? Not your therapist or magnet supplier obviously, but which ones? If you agree that magnetic therapists are dishonest or misleading with some or many of their claims, why can they suddenly be trusted regarding FM?

    You said that "you never looked at anything positive with this type of therapy, not that I can remember anyway". In fact we did mention the following:

    Pulsed electromagnetic fields have been found to aid healing in some bone fractures and to reduce certain types of pain for example. However they do not reduce pain in general or increase blood circulation etc as claimed by magnetic therapists. And they most certainly don't cure cancer. For a very few specific aliments the use of highly specialised magnets, usually pulsed electromagnets, can have positive health effects.

    We certainly don't perceive scientific research into the effects of magnetic therapy a joke and encourage those who believe it has potential to prove its efficacy, like all conventional medicine has to, rather than electing to remain as an unproven alternative therapy, alongside healing crystals and prayer. However, as for the magnetic therapist industry and the bogus information and unsupported claims they put out, yes we do consider them a joke. A very exploitive, expensive and possibly dangerous joke. It could be that magnets do have some positive effect on one or two of the numerous diseases, aliments and afflictions they claim to treat, but if this is the case, magnetic therapists will have found it by accident while pushing their bogus 'if it hurts, put a magnet on it' scam. In hindsight, it's as silly as old age practitioners trying to cure everything by putting a leech on the afflicted body part.

    You say "if you have fibromyalgia, then you would know that there is no way that I could put a magnet or anything else on my areas of pain and make all my problems go away". How do you know that? You did just that to relief your pain, albeit temporarily. Since neither you, doctors or the magnetic therapists know what causes FM, how do you know that magnets can't fix it? You believe magnets have a temporary effect, so why couldn't it also be permanent if used slightly differently? Let's assume magnets somehow temporarily "reset" faulty neurons, couldn't more powerful magnets cause that "reset" to be permanent? My point is, you're criticising me for deciding what magnets are capable of, yet you're doing exactly the same. You're saying magnets can give you temporary pain relief but that "there is no way" that they can treat FM. Why can you decide what magnets might be capable of but not me? You seem to imply that having FM gives you special insight, whereas I would say my detachment allows me to be unbiased. I don't have any real interest as to whether magnets work or not, I just want the truth. I happily support many theories that years ago would have been considered ridiculous. I do this because the evidence now supports them, but the evidence for magnetic therapy is still lacking. And unfortunately testimonials are not evidence.

    You say your experience is valid, and ask me to share my experience. My experience is that on investigating the claims of magnetic therapists they are largely bogus and have no medical or scientific support. My experience is that medical advances come from scientists, doctors and hospitals, not an internet website run out of someone's garage. My experience is that magnetic therapists can no more support their claims than can homeopaths, Reiki practitioners or Catholic priests.

    I completely understand how someone with an illness that can't be effectively treated by conventional, proven methods might seek out alternative, unproven treatments, but there are thousands of claimed cures out there, and most of them will be bogus. People must decide which ones they believe have potential and which ones don't. Time and money are limited. I'm sure there are many healing claims that you wouldn't even consider, and rightly so in my view. You would say that the evidence that they might be effective just isn't there. Not being in search of a cure, I can be completely objective with my take on magnetic therapy, whereas I suspect you are prepared to overlook some of their dubious claims when FM treatment is discussed, whereas you probably wouldn't when they talk about cancer treatment. You're willing to try something that you accept is a long shot, just to get relief. You're looking for treatments and scientific studies that provide hope, whereas I'm simply asking do these treatments and scientific studies provide good evidence that they work, and the answer is no. Not that magnets don't or can't have an effect, but that it hasn't yet been proven that they do.

14. Comment by Tammy, 10 Dec, 2008

    This will be my last response in regard to this matter. I do understand what you are saying, and I agree with some of the things you say, but not entirely. You twisted my words a little, and for the sake of argument I will just say, whatever you think man. I don't know as much as you because as I have clearly stated, this was an experience, not a scientific study, but experience alone. I never implied or meant to imply that magnets couldn't treat FM, but it certainly hasn't made all my pain go away outside of the initial discovery. It has helped, and that was the whole point of me contacting you, to share my experience and to say that I think you should report from both sides. Your article IMO failed to report patient's experiences, studies etc. I own several websites and blogs, almost 100 all together. I always try to look at things from both sides in most cases, as it seems more balanced. I am big on backing up what I claim with facts. You clearly did that in your article, but to me, it seemed like you made the whole idea of magnetic therapy a joke, and that was what I disagreed with for the most part. I felt that was unfair to say being that there are many that have had positive experiences with this type of therapy, and have for many years. If it was completely a joke, then the government wouldn't have spent so much money on the few studies they did. Nor would they have conducted more than one study, if the results were not significant at one point.

    You believe what you believe based on what you have investigated or whatever, and I respect that. However, I think when it comes to things such as this, you need to make sure that you do not influence people in the wrong direction or make anyone less hopeful, unless it is a complete scam, such as that pain relief spray by Dr..whatever his name is. The one where you spray it under your tongue, I can't even remember now what it was, but that was a complete scam and there were no studies done that could prove otherwise. This stupid product sucked money out of a lot of people who were hopeful and just wanted some relief. So, from that standpoint of wanting to call out those who are fraudulent, I completely agree and respect what you are trying to do.

    In the case with magnetic therapy however, there have been studies done, and there have been significant results, whether or not that one particular study was completely conclusive makes no difference in this case because there are other studies that have backed up the claims that magnets can help with certain types of problems. I think the problem with this particular situation is that the results are so sporadic because of the nature of the condition, and that has a lot to with the type of effects magnets have on the body and condition of the patient, IMO. It should be recommended by the FDA that there be more studies done, and that they become available as an alternative pain reliever if the patient has no success otherwise. Or in which case the patient cannot tolerate certain medicines to treat their condition that involves chronic pain. I don't think you can disagree with that.

    I think that magnets can help people depending on the issue, bottom line. I don't know for a fact if they could completely make pain go away with all situations, but for me it does help. It did relieve almost all my pain, but only temporarily. Currently they just ease the pain slightly, but are still a big help. I have tendon and ligament damage on top of FM, so it takes more than magnets to completely relieve it being that there is inflammation. I have found, along with my doctor, that they are helping with the recovery of the damage to my arm. I just saw her today actually. I had cancer recently, and my immune system is down currently because of recent radiation treatment. The magnets are helping with circulation in a local area, and that could be why they are helping with the healing according to my own doctor, whereas before the healing was much slower because of my immune system, but I will not go any further into that with you. Obviously my doctor and I are smart enough to not claim this without taking into consideration medication or other changes I have made personally, that is common sense. There was no coincidence in this case. The healing hasn't been remarkable, but they have helped a lot. I think it just depends on the individual and how they respond to the effects of magnets.

    There are a lot of things to take into consideration when dealing with this type of therapy, and I think that is a big reason FM still puzzles many doctors, and one reason why magnetic therapy results vary so much. I really don't have the time to discuss this with you anymore, and I say that respectfully. I don't have all the knowledge that you have about this issue, just expeirience for the most part. Obviously you have spent much more time on this than me.

    I thought I would give you another perspective is all. Take it or leave it, frankly I am not that concerned about it anymore.

    With all that said, I do wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas, and hope you have many blessings in the new year. Take care my friend. And maybe we will run into each other on the net somewhere down the line.

15. Comment by the 'Silly Beliefs' Team, 12 Dec, 2008

    I agree Tammy that many believe they have had "positive experiences" with magnets, but as I've said, equally many believe they have had "positive experiences" with angels, healing crystals and aliens. These claims need to be verified by scientific studies, and to date they have not. Yes scientists and doctors have undertaken studies into magnetic therapy because of course there is a possibility that magnetic fields might influence body functions, and they do. We mentioned that pulsed electromagnets have proven effective in healing some bone fractures, in certain types of pain reduction and that Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation might also have an effect on some neurological conditions. It is only sensible that science would look at magnetic therapy, but people shouldn't confuse this investigation with an endorsement. Over the years science has looked at claims for cold fusion, creationism and even fairies. Although some people believed in these things, science found them baseless. No doubt in the future there will be some medical treatments based on magnetic fields, but they are likely to be vastly different from the magnetic therapy offered by those selling magnetic underlays and magnetised water. Those selling souped-up fridge magnets to relieve pain and cure cancer are dishonest in the extreme when they claim scientific studies support them. Everyone should know that personal experiences (or testimonials) are not evidence, and all they are good for is to encourage and initiate scientific study. It is the scientific studies that will tell you whether personal experiences have any grounding in reality.

    I also agree that it's important to consider both sides of a debate, but this concept of "balanced" leads many to believe that both sides are equal, that the evidence and support for each side is "balanced", and that equal time must be allocated to each side. In some scientific debates this is true, but for many others it is blatantly false. For example, is the earth flat or a sphere, does the sun go around the earth or vice versa, which is true — creationism or evolution? Support for the first option in each of these examples does exist, yet it is minuscule when compared to the wealth of evidence supporting the alternative view. In the scientific sphere it would be considered irrational to "report from both sides" or give 'equal time' when one side clearly was not supported by the evidence. And magnetic therapy isn't supported by the evidence. That said, in our article we did spend considerable time looking at the major claims made by magnetic therapists — magnets attract blood, magnets attract ions, magnets cure cancer, magnets were used by Cleopatra, magnetism keeps the planets in orbit etc. It's not our fault that these are all bogus claims. We didn't report the scientific studies that demonstrate these magnetic therapies using over the counter magnets work because there are none. And although you've had several opportunities to highlight the positive studies you claim to have seen, you haven't done so either.

    You even say that "it should be recommended by the FDA that there be more studies done". This is an admission that existing studies don't prove the efficacy of magnets, that more work needs to be done to demonstrate an effect. Yet you then say that the FDA should recommend and make magnets "available as an alternative pain reliever". This would destroy the credibility of the FDA if they recommended something that they agreed hadn't been proven effective. I most certainly disagree with this stance. One purpose of the FDA is to prevent people making unsubstantiated health claims and you're suggesting they make some of their own. Magnetic therapy isn't secret or illegal, millions of people already spend (waste) their money on magnets as an "alternative pain reliever", and they don't need the FDA to boost their coffers. If magnets work, they will work regardless of what the FDA say.

    I thank you for relating your personal experiences with magnets, and I certainly hope you have found some relief, for whatever reason. Maybe there is a kernel of truth regarding the healing ability of magnets, but it is hidden in a sea of lies and ignorance. If it exists, only robust scientific studies will tease it out. Testimonials are not sufficient, and while they may get scientists thinking, if I was to blindly accept testimonials, I would have to believe in angels, healing crystals and alien abduction as well. I'll await the scientific evidence.

16. Comment by Phil, 03 Mar, 2009

    Your debate with Tammy illustrates once again that a person cannot be reasoned out of a belief arrived at without reason being involved to start with... I suspect she doesn't know what the placebo effect is either. Keep up the good work.

17. Comment by Michael, 14 Sep, 2009

    "Faith sons works on intellectual levels and live on spirtual planes far above the conflicts produced by unrestrained or unnatural physcial desires. The normal urges of human beings and the natural appetites and impulses of the physical nature are not in conflict with even the highest spiritual attainment except in the minds of ignorant, mistaught, or unfortunaely overconcientious persons" mercy with your fellow man makes you think about slinging the moran, etc. at others not only with love your neighbor but the fact you may have to eat it, further on down the road... faith is eternal, the answers will change here with dogma.

18. Comment by the 'Silly Beliefs' Team, 14 Sep, 2009

    Sorry Michael, but I'm not at all sure what you're trying to say. Rather than commenting on magnetic therapy, it just seems to be pseudo-religious nonsense. There are no spiritual planes to be concerned with, and while I agree that faith works on the intellect, it works to subvert the intellect and it brings about those ignorant and poorly educated people you speak of. And yes, unfortunately faith is eternal, in that there will always be people that adopt faith simply as an excuse for not having to think.

19. Comment by Kevin, 12 Oct, 2009

    Hi John, what is your belief? and all these readers?
    Going to a cancer hospital for chemo therapy or treatment
    losing all your hair dying anyway? Taking some medication or what?
    It that what you all what? In my home town Buffalo New york
    We have Roswell Cancer Hospital to help Cancer patents
    we have the Medical Ass.too but we are Dying too
    Back Pain America we go to the doctor He says you need surgery We can Fix up your back It will be fine Yeahhhh Right He Does You lift a couch Permanant damage to you back So we dont trust magnets But we trust Modern western Medicine and Surgery and a furneral service for ourservice Because we trust Viagara Viorxx Aicid Refux Western Medicine
    Or Magnets So both Do permenant Damage?? America You Be the Judge.

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